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it's entirely about pacing. you can't build UP UPUPUP (with the fantastic boat sequence and stuff) and then suddenly DROP to "go get me a cake from my kitchen lol", especially when such a thing has absolutely no storyline relevance
i mean there ARE ways to have a drop like that in the tone and stuff but not in the pacing. that kills it man.
now that i think about my suggestion i think that making those side-quest things OPTIONAL would actually be a fantastic way of going about this.
Maybe you ought to cut down on the exaggeration and sarcasm, because obviously it gets people worked up and we don't actually get what you're trying to say. I don't think we'll ever come to an agreement, so let's at least agree to disagree. You obviously don't like the generic RPG stuff. I did, it felt nice and homey. I just put the OMG CRAZY SUPER PACE of the boat scene into a nice little box and sorted it on the side, ready to pick it up again after the flashback.
missy no":1vucmokz said:
I have tremendously high standards. I'm not asking that they be met, but I'm asking that they be considered and hoping that they are at least touched on. I don't settle for "good enough". I'm not writing a review here. If I was writing a review, it would be incredibly positive, more like yours (though a bit less circle-jerkish). I'm giving the author feedback on how to improve his work. I'm not writing these things with the intent to show off or promote anything, I want to help make this game the best that it can.
And I very rarely enjoy RPGs, so if that was meant to be an insult or something I don't get it.
That would be an awful insult. It was an observation, it looked like you wanted this game to be a sidescrolling shooter where you can just press start to get over the storytelling bits.
Sure, some of your notes and feedback were important, but other parts were just personal opinions. You want the game "to be the best it can" according to your point of view. But obviously Bruno can't satisfy everyone, he can just do the best he can while keeping up with what he believes in and hopes that most people will enjoy it.
yes? you are welcome to double and triple post as well if they're actual posts with content in them. it's not some massive rulebreaking thing like people tend to think it is. each of those three posts is a full post in itself. doubleposting is only really annoying when people do it just to post afterthoughts and stuff.
Maybe you ought to cut down on the exaggeration and sarcasm, because obviously it gets people worked up and we don't actually get what you're trying to say.
you're probably right. bruno (and everyone else), i apologize for my tone and my style of writing. it isn't meant to be offensive. i write what comes to my mind. personally if someone was a little rough with me, it wouldn't really bother me much (i might even enjoy it). i get that not everyone is so ok with things, so pretend i was saying the same things but nicer
It was an observation, it looked like you wanted this game to be a sidescrolling shooter where you can just press start to get over the storytelling bits.
how is "go push this npc's dresser against the wall" storytelling? how, by any stretch of the imagination, do you consider "go find these 8 NPCs and repeat the same dialogue with each of them" to be storytelling? please answer me this.
i WANT storytelling. i'm not saying to CUT THE GOOD STUFF. I'm saying to cut the NON-STORY STUFF. frankly i cannot see how you are missing my point as much as you are.
I guess I just enjoy the tiny, if useless, touches. In that flashback, getting those 8 people and the cake is as important as killing that evil wizard in the end. It illustrates how simple things were back then. I, personally, am not a fan of highly concentrated storytelling. It's like drinking too much coke at once, you need to stop and breathe for air, maybe eat that popcorn too... Sorry, I just got back from the movies, I still got it on my mind.
you're probably right. bruno (and everyone else), i apologize for my tone and my style of writing. it isn't meant to be offensive. i write what comes to my mind. personally if someone was a little rough with me, it wouldn't really bother me much (i might even enjoy it). i get that not everyone is so ok with things, so pretend i was saying the same things but nicer
So let me get this straight. You want me to cut down that sequence because of the pace of the game.
The point you seem to be mising is that this was purely intentional. Take the first dungeon and the home life. Two completely different lifesyles. As you said, the first part had a lot of pace. The Town sat back and had a breather. This is the point I'm trying to make. Now think some more. While Dejack left the village without telling anyone, they're still stuck in this village, being harrassed again and again to have a military base built in their town.
That whole sequence is for building the town's personality. The townspeople's personalities. This is why Dejack takes the time out to help people, to fetch the cake, to move the drawers, all the while experiencing their company. The player experiences his liking of them, and theirs of him.
So, like Doctor says, I think we just have to agree to disagree. I guess we were both out of order in responding to one another, Des, and I'm sorry.
Just thought people should know, I am working on a changed version of this game, working on the technical issues Des brought up, as well as some of the critisisms Doctor brought up in his review.
Man, did I get more than I bargained for when making this topic... :P
While Dejack left the village without telling anyone, they're still stuck in this village, being harrassed again and again to have a military base built in their town.
Without Dejack, does the village stand still? I mean, there's nobody to move furniture or properly chop down trees or even tell people that they are having a party? Without Dejack, our helpless villagers seem like they would have a hard time surviving!
If your goal was to show the personalities of the villagers, then you've failed at it. They are all written as the same incredibly boring and incredibly dumb person. The only exception to this is Gregory (and possibly the two gossipy high school girls, but they're a horrible stereotype to begin with). In fact the only memorable villagers at all are Gregory, Zack, Anna and Bashnee. And that's only because the four of them have some sort of importance to the plot at that point.
And trust me, if you want to show a character's individual personality, then sending me wandering through the forest for five minutes looking for the character isn't the right way to go about it.
If the section had better written NPCs, then it may have been forgiveable. But when every single one says more or less the same thing "Oh sure, Dejack. See you in an hour at the party" then that's why it seems like a pointless quest and a waste of time.
The player experiences his liking of them, and theirs of him.
I don't know about that. It seems like they're totally hepless and I found the townspeople to be inredibly annoying. Seriously-- going to get a cake? It's just tedious.
But I give up. I guess I just have higher standards for storytelling and you are perfectly comfortable settling into the generic JRPG "good enough" way of thinking.
Frankly I chose to play this game because Doctor's review said that it was so good and spectcatular and that it was better than MotW. That gives me high expectations. And then I play this and it lives up to them-- for about the first twenty minutes. When it plummets to generic RMXP game material, I figure that it would be nice to try and help you. Apparently you were intentionally making it a generic RMXP game, so maybe I've been wasting my time.
Just another RMXP game with an author wanting their egos stroked.
But I give up. I guess I just have higher standards for storytelling and you are perfectly comfortable settling into the generic JRPG "good enough" way of thinking.
Have fun with your RMXP game. Since that's all it really is at this point, just another RMXP game.
Oh, stop it. No need to go acting all butthurt just cause he decided not to completely revamp that whole sequence based on your suggestions. It has not doomed the game to mediocrity or anything close to that. This quality of this game is already WAY above average, with or without the flashback. Also, I fail to see what's Japanese about any of this. Seems more like you associate anything you don't like with JRPGs. But i can't write too much longer, I have to get to work so I can meet those generic JRPG "deadlines."
??? it was mediocre before i made that post. that's what the WHOLE POINT of all of that was. the game had FANTASTIC POTENTIAL from the beginning and i was trying to help show him how to carry it all the way through.
and i compared it to a JRPG because of the whole "little guy in a forest village" with cardboard cutout NPCs thing, not because i don't like it? i stated multiple times (and i stated multiple times that i have stated multiple times) that i DO LIKE THE GAME. i wouldn't have spent so much time arguing about this if i didn't like it.
man what is with people on this forum and not being able to read my posts? is my lack of traditional grammar SO OFFPUTTING that you people miss my points entirely?
Guess so. And Pu-lease, you know you want all of us to apologize and tell you you're right so you can have ego stroked.
And (How many times do I have to say it before it becomes redundant?) it's mediocre from your point of view because anything slightly reminiscent of japanese RPG fantasy setting will strike the Despain's hate nerve.
For those of us that don't mind spending thirty seconds to fetch the cake, that bit is just as important as anything else because it's an important quest in the village setting, because at that point in time nothing fantastic and epic is happening in the hero's life.
But, let's give him some happy-happy. Bruno, I guess you could duck down the fetch people quest to 5 or 6 people, so those of us with less patience won't get their panties in a twist.
I'm capable of stroking my own ego (and do it often enough elswehere).
If all I wanted was my ego stroked I would have taken the popular viewpoint rather than take the one where everyone is against me. I don't care about being hated or disliked, I want to do what's best.
In that sense... you could call me the Batman.
because at that point in time nothing fantastic and epic is happening in the hero's life.
THEN WHY DO WE CARE? That's the biggest one that you don't seem to understand here. You people are totally happy living your mundane little lives and don't even realize it when it crosses over into your entertainment. People are playing the game to unlock the Legacy of Zelnoth or whatever. They're not playing the game so they can bake a cake and push around furtniture.
so those of us with less patience won't get their panties in a twist.
It's not impatience. I am far more patient than most players when playing games like these. I tend to explore every little area of a game and purposely do things out of order to see how much there is to do. I said many times that my objection to this was that it prevents the story from moving forward at a consistent pace.
I already said that I would stop, chico. So stop trying to get in the last word.
I'm capable of stroking my own ego (and do it often enough elswehere).
If all I wanted was my ego stroked I would have taken the popular viewpoint rather than take the one where everyone is against me. I don't care about being hated or disliked, I want to do what's best.
Batman against the Jrpgs, there's your 2012 summer blockbuster.
THEN WHY DO WE CARE? That's the biggest one that you don't seem to understand here. You people are totally happy living your mundane little lives and don't even realize it when it crosses over into your entertainment. People are playing the game to unlock the Legacy of Zelnoth or whatever. They're not playing the game so they can bake a cake and push around furtniture.
Why must everything be apocalypse and rain of blood and evil warlocks (which you hate anyway?) I agree that a game about baking cakes won't be much good, unless it was harvest moon, but that flashback lasts for 20 minutes. In the fantasy village setting, there's no evil warlock, no war (at least it's on the horizon), no monsters threatening to eat the virgins. That cake, preparing for the party, reparing the roof, THAT's what's important there. The hero wouldn't be the same in the eyes of the players without having experienced his mundane life.
Also, yeah, I'm happy living my mundane life. Although I can't recall the last time I had to fetch a girl by the waterfall in my beloved peasant village.
It's not impatience. I am far more patient than most players when playing games like these. I tend to explore every little area of a game and purposely do things out of order to see how much there is to do. I said many times that my objection to this was that it prevents the story from moving forward at a consistent pace.
But... but... It was MEANT to break the pace. Pace isn't meant to be consistent throughout the game... it usually starts out slow and gets faster as the story reaches its climax, but this game started in media res, hence why the pace broke after the first dungeon, and it works a lot better that way, don't think it would have had the same impact if we had started the game in the "beloved peasant village".
I already said that I would stop, chico. So stop trying to get in the last word.
I just finished playing through the first flashback, where Dejack is making his case for leaving the military, and here's what I think so far:
First of all, the mapping in this game is really good. Both indoors and out, it's well done. The trees did look a little chunky in the forest top where you tried to block passage (I think that's what you were going for), but as far as the layout, spacing and variation, it's top-notch. It's a good example in my mind of how the RTP can be put to good use. The puzzles were well designed and rewarding to play. Also, the writing is better than a lot of what we see around here. The way you showed the two kids playing Cowboys & Indians was simple yet effective story-telling.
Some ideas for improvement, if you'd like to hear them:
1. Certain parts of the exposition feel forced. Instead of having someone flatly say what happened in the past (which is noticeable), you could have the characters discuss the events in a way that gets the information across in a more interesting and spontaneous way. Rather than "As you know, we've been at war with the hogs for years", you have a character say something like, "I can't even remember what life was like before the war started, it's been so long." The player gets the same information, but they don't feel like they are being catered to, and it doesn't disrupt the suspension of disbelief.
2. You took some flak for using the term "Elevenses", mostly for it being a British term. My take on this word has nothing to do with being British, it has everything to do with it being a colloquialism, and it's not the only one you use. (I.e. "man-love", "balls", "you lot".) You don't use very many, but they do stand out. In writing a story that takes place in a vastly different (and presumably ancient) setting from our own, to hear more or less "street phrases" of our own time sounds out of place, and takes the player out of the moment. Characters should be using phrases that come out of their world, not the world of the game creator. A good example of this is the use of the phrase "By Deun". It's a colloquialism sure, but it's one that makes sense for the character in your fantasy world to say.
3. The sunset scene was too red. I think you could tone it down and still get the point across.
4. You misspelled "believe" in a few places. (You spelled it "beleive")
The rest of my comments will be in a spoiler, because I don't want to give away any plot points that you may want protected.
I thought having the flashback was a good idea narratively, and while I disagree with Despain that the flashback inherently flawed the game (not to mention his/her method of conveying that), I DO think that the flashback could be BETTER:
1. Part of what makes a flashback interesting is the connection to the present. And if a flashback is too long, you risk losing that connection. One way to address this without simply cutting out what you've already done is to return the scene periodically to the military hearing, to remind the player of the flashback's framing and relevance. You could also use this as a method for additional storytelling, as an alternative to directly experiencing something during the flashback. (Inform the player of certain facts by having the magistrate interrupt Dejack's flashback monologue to get clarification, for example). It would also help players who save during the flashback and don't come back until a few days later, as a reminder of the importance of what's happening.
2. The scenes with the hogs really added suspense to the whole experience, because it was a reminder that Zack would be killed soon, which we learned from Dejack's very brief flashback earlier in the story. It wasn't until I realized that it was the same day that I started to REALLY get interested, so having a scene with the hogs earlier might help, or you could capitalize on that suspense by incorporating more scenes with the hogs in general.
3. You have awesome puzzle-creating skills! How about incorporating those into the flashback? Maybe young Dejack has made a reputation around town for his puzzle-solving abilities, and some of the townspeople have puzzle-style quests for him to do. It could also help explain why he's such a dab hand later on.
4. The quest where you have to gather all the people for the party would be more rewarding if the conversations weren't so similar. If you are wanting this quest to tell a story about Dejack and his friends, then you could use these interactions to give the characters more personality. Also, a graphical reminder of who's been asked and who hasn't would certainly help with the run-around. Finally, there were so many people's names to learn in such a short time that it was overwhelming. I've read that you have later flashbacks, so maybe introduce a smaller cast in the first one, and introduce others later on.
All in all, this is a good game with lots of potential, and definitely worth a look. I hope my comments are of some value.
Some ideas for improvement, if you'd like to hear them:
1. Certain parts of the exposition feel forced. Instead of having someone flatly say what happened in the past (which is noticeable), you could have the characters discuss the events in a way that gets the information across in a more interesting and spontaneous way. Rather than "As you know, we've been at war with the hogs for years", you have a character say something like, "I can't even remember what life was like before the war started, it's been so long." The player gets the same information, but they don't feel like they are being catered to, and it doesn't disrupt the suspension of disbelief.
2. You took some flak for using the term "Elevenses", mostly for it being a British term. My take on this word has nothing to do with being British, it has everything to do with it being a colloquialism, and it's not the only one you use. (I.e. "man-love", "balls", "you lot".) You don't use very many, but they do stand out. In writing a story that takes place in a vastly different (and presumably ancient) setting from our own, to hear more or less "street phrases" of our own time sounds out of place, and takes the player out of the moment. Characters should be using phrases that come out of their world, not the world of the game creator. A good example of this is the use of the phrase "By Deun". It's a colloquialism sure, but it's one that makes sense for the character in your fantasy world to say.
The word "Elevenses" to me isn't really a colloquialism. To me, it's a type of word that suggest "cuddliness". I know I'm not being too clear, but I think that use of that particular word fits Bashnee's character.
But you're right about all the oter stuff. I was thinking that since RPGs are set in a medievil time but the characters tend to be so modern, I thought I could get away with it. Doesn't look like it though, heh?
irekismaren@juno.com":2shf5hp2 said:
3. The sunset scene was too red. I think you could tone it down and still get the point across.
I always have trouble with that one. Thanks, though.
irekismaren@juno.com":2shf5hp2 said:
I thought having the flashback was a good idea narratively, and while I disagree with Despain that the flashback inherently flawed the game (not to mention his/her method of conveying that), I DO think that the flashback could be BETTER:
1. Part of what makes a flashback interesting is the connection to the present. And if a flashback is too long, you risk losing that connection. One way to address this without simply cutting out what you've already done is to return the scene periodically to the military hearing, to remind the player of the flashback's framing and relevance. You could also use this as a method for additional storytelling, as an alternative to directly experiencing something during the flashback. (Inform the player of certain facts by having the magistrate interrupt Dejack's flashback monologue to get clarification, for example). It would also help players who save during the flashback and don't come back until a few days later, as a reminder of the importance of what's happening.
Yes, but I agree with you, but as Despain pointed out, Dejack isn't really going into detail about what he did at Saturi Headland. Though, that said, I suppose I could link it to him telling the other soldiers about his home time. Yeah, that's a good point actually. The voice of the soldier's question could be the voice of the player, ironing out some narrative issues, such as Dejack and Anna.
irekismaren@juno.com":2shf5hp2 said:
2. The scenes with the hogs really added suspense to the whole experience, because it was a reminder that Zack would be killed soon, which we learned from Dejack's very brief flashback earlier in the story. It wasn't until I realized that it was the same day that I started to REALLY get interested, so having a scene with the hogs earlier might help, or you could capitalize on that suspense by incorporating more scenes with the hogs in general.
Hmm... That could work. I could have them running past the waterfalls or whatever to show that they're on their way.
irekismaren@juno.com":2shf5hp2 said:
3. You have awesome puzzle-creating skills! How about incorporating those into the flashback? Maybe young Dejack has made a reputation around town for his puzzle-solving abilities, and some of the townspeople have puzzle-style quests for him to do. It could also help explain why he's such a dab hand later on.
Now there's an Idea. I hadn't thought of that, actually. Maybe I could do a breif side-quest where Dejack has to solve John's puzzle in the paper as well.
irekismaren@juno.com":2shf5hp2 said:
4. The quest where you have to gather all the people for the party would be more rewarding if the conversations weren't so similar. If you are wanting this quest to tell a story about Dejack and his friends, then you could use these interactions to give the characters more personality. Also, a graphical reminder of who's been asked and who hasn't would certainly help with the run-around. Finally, there were so many people's names to learn in such a short time that it was overwhelming. I've read that you have later flashbacks, so maybe introduce a smaller cast in the first one, and introduce others later on.
I grouped all of the people into their homes, so I thought that it's not really 8 people, but 4 groups of people. But I see your point. I'll add more dialogue for these scenes when I bring out the next version.
irekismaren@juno.com":2shf5hp2 said:
All in all, this is a good game with lots of potential, and definitely worth a look. I hope my comments are of some value.
