Deadly Sin 2: Shining Faith

[Sailerius]

Wait, you're actually charging for this? I think you might want to reconsider and wait until you've had a few more games under your belt. I checked out the trailer and while it wasn't bad, the game looks rather boring with nothing that sets it apart from other (free) RM* titles. On top of that, the graphics look like every other RM game. I was iffy about whether or not I was going to download it when I thought it was free, but there's no way I would ever pay for this.

 

[harmonic]

A few more games under my belt? Are you an experienced veteran of the indie gaming market, Quimosabe?

I have Legacies of Dondoran (freeware, widely popular) and Deadly Sin 1 (highly successful commercial game in 2009). Both big games with long production cycles. I also have Legacies of Dondoran 2 and Outworld, rm2k3 projects that saw major development but weren't finished. And now I have Deadly Sin 2. What more do you want? I've been a player in the RM scene for about 10 years. Am I not supposed to try and break into commercial gaming until I'm 40 years old? That was a rhetorical question.

Nothing that sets it apart from freeware titles? Are you aware that almost all of the scripts are totally original, and that most other games, including commercial games, use tanketai and some other random plug-and-play frankenstein scripts? Have you played the battle system? Seen the Augment system? These scripted systems are totally unique to Deadly Sin 2. Have you seen the character art and the PC battle sprites? Have you listened to the soundtrack? Many games find scattered free music around, whereas I wrote the entire soundtrack for DS2. The game's production values and polish are way beyond anything I could have accomplished with a freeware title. (Here comes the list of titles you like. I am well aware there are many great freeware games.) That's the benefit of having someone willing to shell out thousands for custom artwork, not to mention more thousands for my music production studio, (and having about 20 years of musical training and experience to be able to use it) and having many willing and dedicated beta testers, script contributors, web designers, etc, etc... I have stated several times that I expect bonus criticism for going commercial, as I did a year ago when I first went commercial. However, I was hoping for more than the typical RM game pedantry: Since the game isn't as sophisticated as Final Fantasy 13, it should be abandoned, right?

How many people dream of making video games for a living? That said, how many people are lucky enough, among the thousands upon thousands of new college graduates each year, to get hired into a major company? Big video games are more and more akin to Hollywood. Larger budgets, mass appeal, less accessibility to the inside of the industry. Those of us willing to really pursue those dreams will choose different ways of getting there, and we certainly do not all succeed. But I decided, one year ago, that I wouldn't let useless doubts and the mass-produced skepticism of others prevent me from taking a leap of faith. And now that I'm in it, those who are successful are the ones who support each other. We don't discourage, we don't weasel, we don't slander. I hope this helps you understand things a little better.

 

[Nolund]

I'm going to assume you're over exaggerating on the "thousands for custom artwork, not to mention more thousands for my music production studio" because if not, lol at you sir. If I wanted to be a game designer so badly, and was going to dish out "thousands" of dollars, I certainly wouldn't do it with RPG Maker, considering it has a significantly smaller community base compared to games created with other engines. Hell, you can get Unity for free.

Now, if you are serious about the figures you've spent on this game (thousands indicates at least two grand, so we'll use that figure). That's $4000 for music production and artwork alone. Let's assume you use a cheap host (I paid roughly $71 for one year of hosting with a free domain name). If you didn't pay for scripts made, you're already looking at around 270 purchases in order to make some sort of profit, potentially more considering I've gone with estimates. Whether or not you made a profit or not is not my concern, however, I'm just pointing out a fact. For a game that received only moderate reviews, selling 270+ copies is a pretty big accomplishment.

But I ask you, what does your game offer me that I cannot get with a free game, other than a price tag? You're using RTP, so graphics aren't anything special. Battle system (while intriguing) is no reason to dish out $20. Music? Guys like Reives pump out some incredible scores, and all of his titles are freeware.

So, when it comes down to it, I don't see anything in your game that screams to me "I need to dish out $20 for this".

You said you expect "bonus criticism for going commercial". I expect bonus material in order to go commercial. And frankly, I don't see it. So please, explain to me why would I want to dish out $20 on this.

 

[harmonic]

Nolund, that is what a demo is for. I don't have time to waste reiterating the uniqueness. Nor do I expect any actual sales from here, as I stated in the original post, and restated later. A couple of folks here speak as though they're grizzled veterans of commercial gaming. If it's so easy and you have all the answers, go prove it and retire on your first game made with Unity, rather than spout off pedantry and bravado on a forum.

The game hasn't even received official reviews yet, so your "only moderate reviews" is puzzling.

Your dollar estimates are wildly innacurate, and your predictions are terribly false. I've already well surpassed 270 copies, and that's far more than I needed to turn a profit. To be honest, I am not sure what it is you are trying to accomplish with all this completely irrelevant scrutiny. Whatever the goal is, it is probably not going to work. :P

 

[OrbitDuke]

This is getting really silly,really quick.
harmonic, your game does look interesting, but I am still not sure for about paying 20 for it. I just don't feel about about that amount. I wouldn't even that much for Quintensence, and I thought that game was phenomenal. Why? Because this is NOT 100 percent custom. You said above that it is a huge time and money investment for custom tiles.
If you spent thousands of custom artwork, as you do say, I would have liked to have seen more custom graphics. I mean, your menu is the default RMVX windowskin right? Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not own VX.The tilesets are the default, in some parts, I think. Again, I don't own the program, but I feel I've seen them a lot of places. Your map screenshot in your Topic post, the 2nd one (the forest/swamp area) bothers me because of the vines and the grass area. Those vines just seems very out of place. But I am not professional,but it is how I feel.

You say a couple of folks speak like grizzled veterans of commercial gaming. I don't really see that from these people.They are giving you the same kind of comments they would give anyone here who's game they saw a slight flaw with. I'm not saying the members of HBgames are assholes, but I think they are smart. We are buyers. And you are trying to sell us your game. I really feel that the price is to high, and that you shouldn't belittle your potential customers by saying you know more about this business than we do. Yes, you do have your first game in this series under your belt, which I do remember hearing good things about, but nothing AMAZING.
Do I know anything about commercial gaming? Not a real thing. I don't know who the movers and the shakers are in the industry, or really how to make games. I do film, radio and graphic designs. Games are not my real field. But I like playing some games, and I know what to look for in a game I may pay money for.

I will admit your game does have a professional standard and an attention to detail that is lacking in most freeware games, but don't think anyone here is trying to say that 'if it isn't FF13, it isn't good' or something like that. I just think that if you shoved money and time into this, I would have shoved it into all the aspects of the game. Your artwork is impressive, your music is really good, but the non custom tiles, menu graphics, and even monster battlers (from what i can see in the demo screenshots) just don't justify the 20 dollar price of admission.

 

[harmonic]

If you can't make high quality tiles and monsters yourself (which I can't) then you need to commit a pretty big portion of dollars for custom work, or be extremely lucky to have a friend or a girlfriend who is talented enough and willing enough to do it for free/cheap. The payoff would have been, maybe a few more sales from the RM community, which is not the target market for some pretty obvious reasons. In the end, the only significant benefit to custom tiles and monsters is avoiding unnecessarily pedantic RM community scrutiny.

I invite you to explore the vast array of equally expensive commercial RM games that use Tenketai and 100% RTP for everything, not just tiles and monsters. Trust me, it's not easy when you can't rip anything off, like you can with freeware.

 

[OrbitDuke]

I would say the say the payoff would be the feeling of knowing the product is 100 percent yours. But thats just me.
If you don' care about our 'pedantic scrutiny', why do you post the game in this board and others? I understand we're not your demographic, but is this why? That we're all know nothings?

All this said, I did enjoy the demo very much. If the game really is as long as you say, 20 dollars could be doable to the whole experience, but I wouldn't pay till I heard more about it. Out of curiosity, could you tell me some other commercial RM games? It's late and I may have misread your post a bit there, but this is the 3rd commerical game I've heard of. The first being Avyrond (spelling?)this, and your first Deadly Sins game.

 

[Daxis]

There's also endless eden and Laxius Force. Endless eden is a rmvx that's moderately okay but generally relies takes everything rtp and embraces it with polish eventing and crap, and Laxius Force seems to be a rmxp redo of the laxius power games, and it has a fair amount of polish and gameplay, and reminds you of those B-horror movies in terms of comedy and plot. 80 hours of(Slightly grind) gameplay that's a better than the previous laxious force series.

There's also more in the aveyond series that's also commercial, Ean's Quest or something.

Check out http://www.aldorlea.org/officialsite/ for more commercial games on the rm series. I have not tried any of the ones there except laxius force.

 

[harmonic]

Know nothings? Certainly not. Experienced veteran developers of the indie gaming market? Absolutely not. It is one thing to come at it from the standpoint of a customer, as you have, OrbitDuke, and another thing to come at it from a superiority viewpoint, or a veteran developer viewpoint, as a couple others have. I have a lot more to learn about the indie market, as I've only been in it commercially for about a year. However, that year has been quite a learning experience. Experience DOES teach you things, you know.

I grew up in the RM community. Against the advice of all other indie developers, I posted it at the RM websites to share it, because I felt I had to. There is a huge wall separating the commercial indie market from the RM community, perhaps fanned by the popularity of Aveyond. I see no fundamental reason for this wall to exist.

 

[Ancient Garden]

Very nice. I would buy it if I had the money to.

 

[OrbitDuke]

Know nothings? Certainly not. Experienced veteran developers of the indie gaming market? Absolutely not. It is one thing to come at it from the standpoint of a customer, as you have, OrbitDuke, and another thing to come at it from a superiority viewpoint, or a veteran developer viewpoint, as a couple others have. I have a lot more to learn about the indie market, as I've only been in it commercially for about a year. However, that year has been quite a learning experience. Experience DOES teach you things, you know.

I grew up in the RM community. Against the advice of all other indie developers, I posted it at the RM websites to share it, because I felt I had to. There is a huge wall separating the commercial indie market from the RM community, perhaps fanned by the popularity of Aveyond. I see no fundamental reason for this wall to exist.

This makes a good bit of sense to me. You're right, there really isn't a reason for that wall to be there to barricade your project from others. I'll give it some thought and another run through the demo before I go purchase it. Thank you for posting.