What do you expect from a commercial game?
- Thread starter Anglachel
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The difference is that most commercial games have a lot more production value than RMXP games. We can also assume that most of them wll be better.
Most people who plan to sell there game commercially that I have talked to are selling it for around the $20 mark. Now you probably can pick up a lot of good PS2 and [insert other platform here] games for that price. I'm thinking of Kingdom Hearts and FFX. Of course I don't expect a RMXP game to be as good as these excellent professional games.
With the RTP I would accept a commercial game that has been heavily edited. I reallt can't see myself buying anything that is straight RTP though. If I had never seen RMXP I would probably think it was excellent, but now I would think that I could get something made with the RTP for free.
Something like Memento Vivere or A Wayward Dream doesn't even seem like its the RTP. The thing is I put a lot mroe focus on the graphcis because you can't judge the story without playing it. I'm also not a fan of buying things from the internet.
My point is still that you shouldn't have completely different standards for an RMXP-made game and a game that's made through a different set of programs. If you're adamantly against buying an RMXP game with a cliche story, would you suddenly forgive that in a commercial game and dish out 60$ because it appears to have better marketing, a shiny cover and doesn't say RMXP anywhere in it?
In fact, you would be surprised how few of the peoples' favorite games would actually fit the criteria they have for RMXP. For example ... Did you know that Breath of Fire 2 (for Super Nintendo) has typo's and mistranslations? When you go out to fish, you equip a "lod", not a rod. And occasionally, you "wnat" things rather than wanting them. Oh, and if you try to sell a rare item, your game will crash. I guess that broke the bugs/grammar rule that a lot of people have. And yet, at least some of those people will say that they found BoF2 enjoyable and fun.
And yes, you're certainly entitled to criticize RMXP games more harshly because you know how the program works and what it's capable of. However, I would also caution people to realize that the general audience (i.e. those who aren't familiar with RMXP) may be much easier to please. Game creators should (in my humble opinion anyway) be more interested in what their audience thinks (rather than peers and fellow game creators). Asking what the audience wants in a commercial game (period) would yield much more useful information than just trying to make a specific set of standards for RMXP-made games.
My 2 cents. Feel free to disagree
In fact, you would be surprised how few of the peoples' favorite games would actually fit the criteria they have for RMXP. For example ... Did you know that Breath of Fire 2 (for Super Nintendo) has typo's and mistranslations? When you go out to fish, you equip a "lod", not a rod. And occasionally, you "wnat" things rather than wanting them. Oh, and if you try to sell a rare item, your game will crash. I guess that broke the bugs/grammar rule that a lot of people have. And yet, at least some of those people will say that they found BoF2 enjoyable and fun.
And yes, you're certainly entitled to criticize RMXP games more harshly because you know how the program works and what it's capable of. However, I would also caution people to realize that the general audience (i.e. those who aren't familiar with RMXP) may be much easier to please. Game creators should (in my humble opinion anyway) be more interested in what their audience thinks (rather than peers and fellow game creators). Asking what the audience wants in a commercial game (period) would yield much more useful information than just trying to make a specific set of standards for RMXP-made games.
My 2 cents. Feel free to disagree
I totally 100% agree. I mean my game maybe going commercial. But if it does the people that have posted on my thread will get a game free. Mainly cause they will know more of the story then normal people and also they know what the system can do. The only place I will sell my game is in shops and computer shows.
Anonymous
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I think it depends on what style RPG people like.
But like Kraft said it's down to the maps and individual querks.
battle system is important to, the default isn't one I would use but a commercial game may use it and be great.
plus with all the inspirations of past and present RPG's people will probably bend over backwards just to make a great looking freeware game, or private game.( or not maybe Im just a perfectionist and have to build it in great detail, I just finished my 200 x 200 world map )
But like Kraft said it's down to the maps and individual querks.
battle system is important to, the default isn't one I would use but a commercial game may use it and be great.
plus with all the inspirations of past and present RPG's people will probably bend over backwards just to make a great looking freeware game, or private game.( or not maybe Im just a perfectionist and have to build it in great detail, I just finished my 200 x 200 world map
)The thing is that then I probably wouldn't end buying any RMXP games if I had the same standards as a top of a range PS3 or XBOX360 game...
It will have better marketing, a shiny conver and it wont say RMXP anywhere on it. However as there will be a whole team of people working on the game for up to 3 years, getting paid for it and having a large budget... Well the quality is most likely going to be better than some 13 year old sitting in their underpants making a RMXP game with the RTP. (Joke people
)I don't mean to discourage and potential game makers here. My opinion will have nothing at all to do with whether or not the game will be successfull or not.
Sorry to dissapoint you, but I completely agree :P
I haven't played BOF2 so I can't give opinions on that. I gained an interest in RPGs long after the 2D days. I did, however, enjoy Chrono Trigger imensley. So you could perhaps say that would be the pinacle by which I would judge all other RMXP games.
In the end my standards are high for general RMXP standards (come on if they want us to pay for it...) and lower than commercial standards.
Commerical games can get away with cliches more because they can back up a story with professional voice actors and such. Call me shallow if you like, but pretty graphics are like a shiny light, and I might as well be a moth. Although I value story more than anything else, I'm going to be a lot more likely to play a good looking game than a bad looking one. So I might not get to experiance the story, reguardless of it's quality. I assume most people would be the same.
I sorted out the mess that I call my thought enough to make an interesting post and get my point across. Basically I already plan on buying Dreams and I'm sure it would be well worth putting money towards anyway Ccoa makes (oops?). :P
PS: lunarea. Are you making a game of your own? Commercial or not?
sixtyandaquarter
Member
I expect the same thing I expect from any game. Be it commercial or not, it's point is still to entertain me to the best of it's ability.
Anglachel;272425 said:
Ah, but I'm not suggesting the same standard for the two either. Rather, I'm just saying that the gap between the two should be closer. If you consider yourself difficult to please when it comes to non-RMXP commercial games, I expect you to be difficult to please when it comes to RMXP as well. But some people would refuse to buy an RMXP game unless it were top notch, but then turn around and spend 60-80$ on a poorly translated buggy Nintendo game - often solely because it comes in a box.
Of course. However, some commercial game makers don't get any feedback except the one from their peers (such as the forums here). Because of this, it's easy to set up a really high set of standards that might not reflect what the actual everyday audience wants. Some game creators realize this and others don't. And the end result can range from their game never getting finished to the game being released and not selling any copies (because they ignored the feedback from peers completely and there was a lot of truth to it).
It can be difficult to ask for criticism from peers and then have to sort through what's nitpick-y and too harsh or golden advice to follow. Because of this, I'd find it more useful to just ask "What would you spend money on?" and leave the 'made through RMXP' part of it out of the conversation. This way, you'd get to see what you compete against and what your potential customers (rather than peers) want in a game.
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And you're right, smart marketing will get you more success than anything else. You could have a real crappy game, but if you market it well, the sales will still happen. But even a truly fantastic gem of a game will stay at a few sales if it has bad or no marketing.
I'm looking forward to Dreams too. It looks very promising
I'm working on a non-commercial RMXP game at the moment. I haven't posted a thread yet, but I will as soon as I feel I have something tangible to show. I'm also working on a non-RMXP commercial MMO (won't post a link because I don't want to advertise).
Well I do think the standards, overall, should be the same for commercial games, be then RMXP or not. Main reason is that someone is charging for the game, so it must be worth your game. Let's not forget that there are many nom RMXP freeware games too.
Anglashel said we could call him shallow, and I was about to do that, not in an offenssive way, but more to show a point: Different values.
Ppl has diferent interests and RPGs seem to group a lot of areas together in different quality degrees and even for each area, ppl may have different tastes: Some prefer dark stories, others prefer lighthearted ones, some prefer anime style graphics, others prefere realism and so on... As much as some value graphics more than anything, others value story more, others gameplay and such.
Those preference matters don't regard quality, but target audience. And there will be a larger group who has more common interests and smaller groups which go for less prefered stuff. Surely that the most secure way is to feed the majority, but if by all means you want to go for something less common, know that this public may actually pay more since they don't spend much money with most releases anyway.
However, that is not to say that even if your game sucks, you can still sell it based on a popular theme. Quality is an issue, the matter is: what is quality? I think it comes on how well made the final product is, or even better: how well it portrays the concept it was supposed to portray.
But this doesn't mean that high quality with a poorly appreciated concept will sell you a lot either.
Where do I want to get? Well big game companies have usually better tools, more and better trained personel and a lot more... that helps with quality, but concepts and originality has nothing to do with that. And to that, any creative 13 yuear old can beat some big company worker. No one can teach you to have ideas, it comes from you.
If I were happy with the modern RPG market for its ideas and concepts, I wouldn't play RM games nor old roms, because in most quality aspects, modern RPGs have an upper hand. Still they doesn't make me too happy when I play, it is not the same feel I had with Chrono Triger, FF6 or some RM2k games I played. They didn't have awesome CGs, neither did they have 3D, nor voice acting, neither crazy battle systems with fury bars and the likes... they just had good ideas which were transmited well enough for me to feel then.
For that I say that I would pay more for a good and original RM game than I would for the next Final Fantasy, Tales or whatever popular series the big companies keep spitting out.
Anglashel said we could call him shallow, and I was about to do that, not in an offenssive way, but more to show a point: Different values.
Ppl has diferent interests and RPGs seem to group a lot of areas together in different quality degrees and even for each area, ppl may have different tastes: Some prefer dark stories, others prefer lighthearted ones, some prefer anime style graphics, others prefere realism and so on... As much as some value graphics more than anything, others value story more, others gameplay and such.
Those preference matters don't regard quality, but target audience. And there will be a larger group who has more common interests and smaller groups which go for less prefered stuff. Surely that the most secure way is to feed the majority, but if by all means you want to go for something less common, know that this public may actually pay more since they don't spend much money with most releases anyway.
However, that is not to say that even if your game sucks, you can still sell it based on a popular theme. Quality is an issue, the matter is: what is quality? I think it comes on how well made the final product is, or even better: how well it portrays the concept it was supposed to portray.
But this doesn't mean that high quality with a poorly appreciated concept will sell you a lot either.
Where do I want to get? Well big game companies have usually better tools, more and better trained personel and a lot more... that helps with quality, but concepts and originality has nothing to do with that. And to that, any creative 13 yuear old can beat some big company worker. No one can teach you to have ideas, it comes from you.
If I were happy with the modern RPG market for its ideas and concepts, I wouldn't play RM games nor old roms, because in most quality aspects, modern RPGs have an upper hand. Still they doesn't make me too happy when I play, it is not the same feel I had with Chrono Triger, FF6 or some RM2k games I played. They didn't have awesome CGs, neither did they have 3D, nor voice acting, neither crazy battle systems with fury bars and the likes... they just had good ideas which were transmited well enough for me to feel then.
For that I say that I would pay more for a good and original RM game than I would for the next Final Fantasy, Tales or whatever popular series the big companies keep spitting out.
I expect the same things when playing like a GBA rpg or a SNES rpg. If it is up to those standards, Its okay.
I don't mind the RTP, as you would be a fool to not use its tilesets or at least not modify them for your game. They pretty much give you the basics for inside houses, forest, desert, e.t.c.
And think about it - Does Jo Gamer who never even hard of RPG Maker XP going to noitce what is RTP and what isn't? Of course not! Sure, getting a good review from the RTPers is important to some, but the most important thing with a commercial game is selling it.
For example - Eragon. This book/movie is filled with every cliche imaginable. Yet is still sold? Why? Because the public are not artistic critics. The public are not film critics. If it has cool special effects and dragons and e.t.c., it will probably sell.
Look at all the "christmas, family comedies". Sure, some are great, but most are utter crap. People still watch them though.
Its good to have somewhat high standards, but people should keep in mind that most people won't.
I don't mind the RTP, as you would be a fool to not use its tilesets or at least not modify them for your game. They pretty much give you the basics for inside houses, forest, desert, e.t.c.
And think about it - Does Jo Gamer who never even hard of RPG Maker XP going to noitce what is RTP and what isn't? Of course not! Sure, getting a good review from the RTPers is important to some, but the most important thing with a commercial game is selling it.
For example - Eragon. This book/movie is filled with every cliche imaginable. Yet is still sold? Why? Because the public are not artistic critics. The public are not film critics. If it has cool special effects and dragons and e.t.c., it will probably sell.
Look at all the "christmas, family comedies". Sure, some are great, but most are utter crap. People still watch them though.
Its good to have somewhat high standards, but people should keep in mind that most people won't.
madriel222
Member
You can only expect to get what you pay for, and the seller should set the price accordingly.
I could go over a huge list of things that most people would expect from a commercial RMXP game, but more or less all of them would be arbitrary. What would you expect from commercial, professional games? Originality, good graphics, intriguing plot, the list could go on. But the fact of the matter is that many professional games even lack on these fronts, so who is to hold RMXP to a higher standard?
Fortunately, I do think there are a few things you can ask for:
*Spelling and grammar to be 100% perfect, NO EXCEPTIONS. If you are selling your work, I would expect that you put forth enough time in the editing and revision process to make it worth our while
*Some Custom Elements. It would be an insult to sell a game that is hardly your own work. You should be pouring your heart and soul into your games anyway, so I would expect at least something (whether music, graphics, system design, something!) to be at least a little innovative or unique.
*Support. The creator of the game needs to be held accountable for mistakes and errors and should respond to technical problems in a timely and polite manner. The buyer goes into the transaction thinking that his/her money is going toward a working product.
Besides these few things, the door is really wide open. You honestly get what you pay for, and the market will ultimately determine whether your game is worthy of commercial status or not. Just a couple of my cents thrown your way.
I could go over a huge list of things that most people would expect from a commercial RMXP game, but more or less all of them would be arbitrary. What would you expect from commercial, professional games? Originality, good graphics, intriguing plot, the list could go on. But the fact of the matter is that many professional games even lack on these fronts, so who is to hold RMXP to a higher standard?
Fortunately, I do think there are a few things you can ask for:
*Spelling and grammar to be 100% perfect, NO EXCEPTIONS. If you are selling your work, I would expect that you put forth enough time in the editing and revision process to make it worth our while
*Some Custom Elements. It would be an insult to sell a game that is hardly your own work. You should be pouring your heart and soul into your games anyway, so I would expect at least something (whether music, graphics, system design, something!) to be at least a little innovative or unique.
*Support. The creator of the game needs to be held accountable for mistakes and errors and should respond to technical problems in a timely and polite manner. The buyer goes into the transaction thinking that his/her money is going toward a working product.
Besides these few things, the door is really wide open. You honestly get what you pay for, and the market will ultimately determine whether your game is worthy of commercial status or not. Just a couple of my cents thrown your way.
I would expect it to play well, with either no bugs or patches to fix any bugs. I would expect it to be longer than the average RMXP game, around the length of a game I'd buy from a shop. For example, FFVII has cruddy graphics but I got 40hrs on the clock the first time I played it. I'd expect it to be fun, enough for me to want to buy another RMXP game.
Online and commercial is slightly different. I'd expect it to be a decent length with a good amount done, but it doesn't have to be finished (because storylines in online games never really end as such). But I'd expect it to be all the things from a normal commercial game, but updated regularly. (Even if it's just a new item every month). I'd expect it to be running it's own servers, not a freewebs account or whatever.
Mainly, I'd expect them to pay money into their own game rather than completely free.
Online and commercial is slightly different. I'd expect it to be a decent length with a good amount done, but it doesn't have to be finished (because storylines in online games never really end as such). But I'd expect it to be all the things from a normal commercial game, but updated regularly. (Even if it's just a new item every month). I'd expect it to be running it's own servers, not a freewebs account or whatever.
Mainly, I'd expect them to pay money into their own game rather than completely free.
Actingman00
Member
If I'm paying for it I expect it to be just as good as a normal RPG I would buy for my DS or Xbox 360. Of course it all depends on the price. If I'm paying $5 for it then my expectations are lower but if I'm paying $15 and up then my expecations are higher.
When people say things like that I always get confused. An RMXP game on release could be $15 (£7.50), but a game such as Halo 3 on release costs upwards of $100 here (£50). There's a big difference, so the expectations can't possibly be the same. Even at $20 (£10) such as Aveyond, that is still a sort of "bargain basket" priced game compared to the console games.
sgeos":39g2rk1w said:
Screw the audience..
My games were always me.. me telling stories, me saying "What'd be nice?".
Me wanting romance, me wanting better graphics, me.. me.. me and my standards.
If it sells mucho bucks, yay. If it doesnt, hey at least I made it.. and I am my biggest fan.
Yet what I look forward in games in general..
Storyline, good battle system, originality, and overall aesthetics that blends everything in together.
Brosek, while that train of thought works in the independent scene, it won't on the commercial. You're investing a certain amount of your money here so you'd at least expect some returns. If you don't, you just lost yourself a lot of money and the possibility of creating another project.
sabao":1sf79wsf said:
Maybe.. but, who says I want to make money if it means making a game that I wont like myself. Screw making a cliche game with a cliche storyline.. just because it makes money. If I succeed or fail, I want to do it my way.. edn. >.>
P.S. My milkshake does brings all the fans to the yard.
That is beside the point. Putting profits aside, you do still need money to keep going. To say you don't have eyes on money at all would be stupid, because you wouldn't have the capital to start a project without it if you had intended to commercially distribute your game in the first place.
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