The value of a unique and appropriate game design.

[Reives]

I disagree... a teenager with less writing experience, a denser social calendar and no capital to hire an artist might take his project just as seriously as an experienced adult with more time and resources. I'm not sure the duty falls upon anyone to judge the seriousness of anyone else's project. If I suddenly became very wealthy tomorrow and had all the resources in the world to purchase custom scripts and art, it would not mean I was taking my project more seriously, even though the end result would be a less hobbyish project. I think everyone deserves to be taken seriously. That's not to say you need to molly-coddle everyone, but I'm also not sure noses need to be turned up quite as quickly as might sometimes happens either.

Not to sound sappy, but the young hobbyist today is gathering experience and savvy that might make him a great developer in the future. It does everyone a disservice to discourage the less-experienced. Sharing advice and resources is great, and it happens a lot here, and I think that's a testament to a good community. But the more people you have sharing, the better it is for everyone. Putting down what others choose to do while holding up your own project as the ideal isn't exactly fostering goodwill.

I do agree with a lot of the points you are making, but however I believe what Forty is saying is by 'taking it seriously' does not necessarily mean making a mockery out of the 'hobby' ones. Hell, I think most of us are here making games for a hobby, after all commercial games generally don't come making a thread here. But rather, what he is saying is the 'I-spent-200-hours-a-week-working-on-my-game' type vs. 'I-make-my-game-as-I-watch-movies' type. In which case, I do agree that the ones that spend considerably more effort should be rewarded as such; although that'd usually come naturally in the form of output anyhow.

That being said, the linked teenager vs. adult thing: It's only natural. I myself am still somewhat of a teenager, and I don't think it'd be fair if we got free rides over adults because "it's not fair, they got more experience". In fact, it's only fair because they went through their life getting that experience, in which we will be too.

 

[paslechoix]

I'd define a serious project with two things :

1. It is not a project to discover the program or anything. Only when you feel you got enough experience. How do you know if you are good enough, since we are constantly learning? When you keep learning the same thing by playing other's games (the guru's games more precisly) but in different ways.

2. You have the will to do it till the end (that dosen't mean you will finish it though...) using "proffesional methods" like write all the plotline and character at the beginning so you will never get stuck with the "blank page syndrom".

And what, there is some teenage nerds that can do a little of everything, at least enough to make a decent project. And teenagers i think also have more free time, cause we only have school to worry about. At least, that's my case.

And i read somewhere that, teenagers are too influenced by their surrounding when writing a story. That could explain why there is so many rips of ffs. In my first project i looked up at FF7 and i wanted to be like them, now i still do but only the part where the game is well made and successefull, not all the system. I guess you can't deny the laws of psychology if you are still human...

Another problem is that people start a project then look for information on making. If people read the cliche list before doing anything, im sure things would be different. At least, better.

 

[Reives]

Another problem is that people start a project then look for information on making. If people read the cliche list before doing anything, im sure things would be different. At least, better.

Speaking of which,
http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html = awesome. :p And a little bit of advertisement on the subject goes here.

 

[lunarea]

@ arcthemonkey

I think that originally, we all had a point where we thought "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if I could make a game just like xxxx!" And finding out that there's a program that simplifies that whole process was a wonderful thing. But after brief twiddling with the program, it begins to become more and more obvious that making games is complex and time-consuming.

At some point in here, some of us will think "Well, gee ... I really liked xxxx, but I kind of want something different." And from this evolves conceptual thinking that eventually leads to original graphics, stories, systems and so on. The process of game-making becomes an avenue to tell stories and share through imagination. And if others like it, awesome!

But other people will think: "Well, game xxxx had a great system/story/graphics, so if I just include that, my game will be a success." The process of game-making is about nurturing their ego and boosting their self-esteem. As such, a lot of emphasis is put on producing something people will like with as little effort as possible. We could say that these people are uncreative, lazy or just plain inexperienced, but this hobby - game making - makes them feel good and important. Maybe even popular.

The hard part in all of this is nurturing originality without putting immense pressure on people. Even those who are making games to boost their self-esteem could be a diamond-in-the-rough. With a little experience under their belt, people might actually reach out for more imaginative ideas to work with.

I think that by offering resources, help and having discussions such as this one, we are helping others learn and think about things from a different perspective. And that's more than most places will do. While I don't think there ever will be a time when there will be no posts asking for Chrono Trigger battle system or 6000 half-kaiser graphics, we might see real growth and development in others. That kid that made a game with 4 maps and a cliche story worthy of a cheesy romance novel might end up making one of our favorite games. It just takes time.

As a side-note, after getting a little bit more familiar with RMXP, I've become really humbled when it comes to game. I have a much better understanding about how difficult it is to come up with original material, how long the whole process takes and how necessary it is to sometimes cut corners. I play the video games I own in different light now, understanding the reasoning behind a particular aspect of the game being underdeveloped compared to the rest. It makes me appreciate games more

 

[fortysixand2]

I disagree... a teenager with less writing experience, a denser social calendar and no capital to hire an artist might take his project just as seriously as an experienced adult with more time and resources. I'm not sure the duty falls upon anyone to judge the seriousness of anyone else's project.

Kinda missed the point of what I stated - I did specify: "If they're not being made seriously then you can't very well expect them to be taken seriously." Whether they're being "made seriously" is, in my view, down to just how seriously it's taken by the person making it, simple as that. It does tend to come across when anything creative is being made with a little love and attention; whether music, prose, poetry, games. If there's more creativity and more passion put into it, whether the person has lots of resources available or not, it will come across to others that they're more intent on making something quality, something that has the mark of their own effort on it.


I think lunarea had a good point above when mentioning how people's interests split during the game-making process. There do seem to be two kinds of people making the games - the ones that are reusing features from games and the ones that are being original (or who are reusing features inventively or putting a different spin on them). Neither's really "better" than the other in and of themselves, but if you think in terms of final product (which was the point of the OP's post) then which is a player going to react more favourably to?


EDIT:

But rather, what he is saying is the 'I-spent-200-hours-a-week-working-on-my-game' type vs. 'I-make-my-game-as-I-watch-movies' type.

That's a far better way of putting it than what I typed. :*)

 

[Zafrod]

Good points by Lunaria... I pretty much agree across the board.

And while I do get what you're saying, fortysix, I guess I got something different from the original post and some of the responses. The first line refers to a 'disturbing trend'... to me, a disturbing trend is corporate lobbyists outnumbering elected representatives in DC, or malaria cases worldwide growing while viable prevention costs decrease. People making games that don't fit someone's criteria of original is not disturbing, and claiming that it is disturbing is making a pretty serious judgment call. Originality in RPGs is a bit of a spurious concept as is... the amount to which popular, commercially successful RPGs borrow from each other and other media is not unremarkable. Anyone bothering to take the time to make a game, regardless of whether or not the content is highly original, is still being more creative and proactive than most, and I don't see any particular reason to get on their case or look down on them. It would be like a professional game designer from Square Enix signing on here and informing all of the serious but still amateur designers that they were wasting their time on unprofessional, independent projects, and that only large-scale corporate RPGs were worth working on. I doubt that would go over very well.

 

[Anglachel]

Its all well and good to have a original concept for a battle system etc, but not all of us can script. Not all of us want to invest the time to learn. Really unless we sell our game what are we getting out of it if it isnt fun? A HUGE amount of time and effort for a little bit of respect on the forums? A sense of acomplishment? Sure these things are great, but I would rather have some fun than slave away at something.