Pay Attention to Graphic Design Please *flutters eyelashes*

[Dark_linis]

*cuts through tension with butter knife*

I find it kind of weird that people are like defending bad design choices here.

ventia may have came off a bit hard but everything she said was valid. there is no real reason for getting so upset over this. Its just some ones opinion. Take it or leave it. Ha, but then again thats were part of the problem lies doesn't it?

 

[Axerax]

*cuts through tension with butter knife*

I find it kind of weird that people are like defending bad design choices here.

ventia may have came off a bit hard but everything she said was valid. there is no real reason for getting so upset over this. Its just some ones opinion. Take it or leave it. Ha, but then again thats were part of the problem lies doesn't it?

No one from what i read is fighting what she said. They may disagree on some aspects or even want a deeper explanation of why she says such fonts are bad and which are good, but everyone has their opinion. Even I do, but because what she is saying is my bread and butter of graphic design conceptions I agree with her. I'm constantly changing stuff to be aesthetically pleasant and correct.

 

[Cruelty]

when did it seem like a good idea to make a rant in an amateur indie game community about professionalism? why does mass marketing appeal matter in a setting like this?

readability is all that matters. so what if the font is cheesy, overused, tacky, or cliche. these things shouldn't matter. if most of us can read it, you're doing just fine.

i say color outside the lines, kids. use a font with kittens for vowels, and the 'T's crossed at the bottom. critics be damned, do what looks neat to you.

 

[kaze950]

*cuts through tension with butter knife*

I find it kind of weird that people are like defending bad design choices here.

ventia may have came off a bit hard but everything she said was valid. there is no real reason for getting so upset over this. Its just some ones opinion. Take it or leave it. Ha, but then again thats were part of the problem lies doesn't it?

I think if the original post said, "IMO, these fonts don't look as good as others", people wouldn't be as upset. I think some are getting so upset because the post essentially says "These are good fonts and these are bad fonts. DON'T USE BAD FONTS BECAUSE "BASIC GD KNOWLEDGE" SAYS THEY ARE BAD AND IF YOU USE THEM YOU ARE STUPID"


What I want to know is, you say a lot of these fonts are bad because they are so overused. The way I see it, something wouldn't be overused unless it was popular. And like it or not, popularity is the only objective way to judge if something is "good" or not. Any other way of judging the "goodness" of something is entirely subjective.

 

[Zeriab]

Thanks for a very informative topic Vennie ^_^

I think if the original post said, "IMO, these fonts don't look as good as others", people wouldn't be as upset. I think some are getting so upset because the post essentially says "These are good fonts and these are bad fonts. DON'T USE BAD FONTS BECAUSE "BASIC GD KNOWLEDGE" SAYS THEY ARE BAD AND IF YOU USE THEM YOU ARE STUPID"

Which version gets the point across better?

There are people who go like :brow: when they read it and pretty much only focuses on the "badness" of the specific section rather than the actual content in the post.
There is the golden rule of wrapping the bad stuff you are about to say in good stuff: good-bad-good. Sugar coating stuff can make that kind of people read what you actually want to say better.

Personally I prefer the first version of the post. I was much quicker able to grasp the points than the later version. (Excluding the added examples naturally)

I take all that is written with a grain of salt and I am sure there are situations where you can use those 'very-bad' fonts to your advantage. It's just much more easier to read a This-Is-How-It-Is article than having points wrapped into what-ifs and excepts. Maybe Vennie will be nice enough make a later article that reflects upon this article?

I for one am happy for the existence of this topic.

*hugs*
- Zeriab

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with a lot of things in this post, it's mostly pretty sound advice just worded as 'DON'T DO THIS EVER' rather than 'hey try not to do this'.

Still, a lot of things do have their places where they won't look awful. Even Comic Sans. Despite being overused it is a font that is easy to read and conveys a mood. If the game fits that mood there is no reason not to use it. If it doesn't fit the mood then that is where the problem lies. As a font it's pretty good, it suits JD's game a lot better than it would have suited other games that I've seen use it because it fits in with the bright colours. It's a lot less jarring than seeing the EVIL OVERLORD saying how he IS ONLY EVIL BECAUSE HIS MOMMY WAS MEAN TO HIM -WEEP- in comic sans. When it's in its place it's as good a font as any, 'its place' just happens to not be as wide and varied as some others. In JD's game you can just ignore the font and read it, which is what you're really aiming for when you use a font. I didn't notice he used comic sans until he pointed it out.

My general thought on fonts is 'if I think about it at all, it's not a good font to use'. If it stands out and you notice it's comic sans then it's placed incorrectly. If I have to struggle to read it then it's really failed. If I think anything except an initial 'hey man cool' when I first see it it's not a good font to use for messages.

Your point that 'anything similar would be okay' is a little offputting. If it looks exactly the same then you're just inconveniencing your player by forcing them to install a font.

As a logo, though, I totally agree with you there. Comic sans has no place being a logo.

Diegoale I don't get what your point was with that??? I'm sure it's a joke but I'm not sure who it was aimed at your wording suggests it was aimed at ven but that makes not sense??? @___@;;;

The other points, though, I agree with a lot. Especially BRIGHT RED ON PURE BLACK which is horrible. Slightly more acceptable in logos but I've seen black text on a bright red windowskin and vice versa which was HORRIBLE.

 

[Volrath]

I think Doctor's bitch comment was sarcasm...he's scrappy, but I don't think he'd go that far. Still, he articulated a certain point better than I could, that sometimes a disagreement is just that...a disagreement, not a commitment to ignorance. And actually, didn't he just change his menu in To Anywhere based on the design complaints? So there you go, someone listens.

Volrath: I like the MOTW logo! I think you did a nice job! And the comic font you use is actually kinda funky and neat and not hard to read! I'm not going after you!

That's nice, but I'm not motivated by selfishness here. I don't argue with you to try and save my project's credibility or anything lame like that. I know these threads aren't about me or my work. I'm the kind of person Rudy Giuliani and Sarah Palin would mock and insult, because I don't always act in my best interests alone. The reason I push back is because I worry about the next generation of RMers. When I first started out, there wasn't this atmosphere of people running around yelling "I AM THE JUDGE OF ALL THINGS, TAKETH MY ADVICE OR BE SCORNED FOREVER."

There's nothing wrong with the actual advice you gave in the first post, it's very sound...but it's the attitude that's the problem. If I was a few years younger and just starting now, I don't think there would be a MotW. Not that I would run around and cry and be like "WHY YOUSE PICKING ON ME" cause that's never been my style, even in my more noobish days. I would just quietly take the project down and probably just work on it on my own, like I did with Clean Slate. I guarantee you that this is happening, that we're quietly losing members who might otherwise create awesome projects because of how caustic all the discussions seem to be around here.

 

[Zekallinos]

I still think that the important part is to have what you use fit your game. Not the random best font you found on internet. There's no such thing as a bad font, there will always be somewhere where it can be good.

Secondly, as long as it looks decent, it can be allright. If we showed one of our own logoes to a designer 50 years ago, I'm sure he would be like "WTF?". I don't believe that "professionalism" is making a logo in a specific way, rather then just balance and color theory. You pointed those out, at least, and it did clear up some things, it's just that we want freedom for our creativity too. One day, it might become industrial standard, who knows. Shift happens.

 

[Venetia]

Man people get so sensitive over semantics in project discussion subforums. There's little wonder why I mostly lurk on the art side instead. Atleast those people can take a poke or two without bleeding.

About Comic Sans.

There are comic-esque fonts that are SIMILAR that make Comic Sans look like a pile of shit. And Monotype Corsiva is scarely better.

Let's get into it.

a.) They're the #1 fonts used by amateurs. This tells you instantly that, when you use it, your work will be regarded as amateur and unprofessional. Google "Why Comic Sans Sucks" sometime. You will be amazed at the large number of people who absolutely loathe it. That information alone should lead you to a quick font search on the internet. Why would you want to needlessly disgrace your product to people when you could find something similar FOR FREE and get less hazing?

b.) Comic Sans was created in 1985 for instructional tooltip purposes within Microsoft programs. It was poorly developed by a programmer, who only sought to make something that looked a little like handwriting. In all actuality, it looks almost nothing like handwriting. The way the letters slope and occasionally end in serifs screams poor design. But hey, it was the 80's, and people didn't have good taste back then. It also wasn't a complete font, and it had to be finished by an entirely different person to become a part of the default font library. The symbols actually don't follow the same directional techniques as the letters. It's interesting when you look at it hard enough.

c.) The mere fact that they are "designer" fonts in the default font library should scream tomes to you. It means that they're unoriginal, easy to detect, and artistic-without-license. If you got a guitar for your birthday and never played a song outside your beginner's handbook ... That's like making an entire game using the "decorative" default fonts.

d.) Your font can be a representation of the words you're trying to get across. If the font is quickly construed as childish or annoying, then how will the text using it be construed? How can you establish mood from a blank slate when the mood is already skewed from a seemingly foreign source?

e.) There are so many better alternatives. Why would you willfully go with bland oatmeal when there's a varitable smörgåsbord of more artistically sound selections out there?


People are allowed to have their opinions, sure. I'm not going to flush something down the toilet because the person made poor stylistic choices. I just don't see why they wouldn't like to improve what they have.

when did it seem like a good idea to make a rant in an amateur indie game community about professionalism? why does mass marketing appeal matter in a setting like this?

readability is all that matters. so what if the font is cheesy, overused, tacky, or cliche. these things shouldn't matter. if most of us can read it, you're doing just fine.

i say color outside the lines, kids. use a font with kittens for vowels, and the 'T's crossed at the bottom. critics be damned, do what looks neat to you.

People with this attitude make me so annoyed.

No one forced you to click into this topic, did they?

And why wouldn't anyone be interested in knowing what would make their products more professional? If they're not interested in professionalism, then please! Leave the damned topic!

When you write a letter to mommy then professionalism counts for nothing. When you make something you'd like to distribute and get a large number of people to enjoy, then you have to think about your audience. If you don't care about appealing to a widespread audience, then this topic isn't aimed at you so calm down, go eat a cookie, and take a chill pill.


The attitude of "Oh well I did a shitty job but it's okay and I'll never learn from it because then my feewings will get hurt!" is the attitude we've been trying to steer people away from over the course of the last year, so grow some extra layers of skin, or else join a place that'll coddle you.

Your choice.

No one's personally attacking you so cut that whiny shit out.

 

[Venetia]

Also--wait a minute, do you people think I'm going to, like, make a rule about this or something, just because I'm an admin????

I'm stating my knowledgeable opinion, I'm not laying the smack down. You realize this, right????

You pointed those out, at least, and it did clear up some things, it's just that we want freedom for our creativity too.

Because when I see stuff like that it leads me to believe that you people think I'm going on a witch hunt or something.

 

[Volrath]

No one forced you to click into this topic, did they?

And why wouldn't anyone be interested in knowing what would make their products more professional? If they're not interested in professionalism, then please! Leave the damned topic!

When you write a letter to mommy then professionalism counts for nothing. When you make something you'd like to distribute and get a large number of people to enjoy, then you have to think about your audience. If you don't care about appealing to a widespread audience, then this topic isn't aimed at you so calm down, go eat a cookie, and take a chill pill.

I can say anything I want, with as much arrogance and venom as I want, but if you say something that runs counter, you shouldn't have read the topic. Uh...okay?

I don't even necessarily agree with what Cruelty said, but that doesn't mean that point of view is instantly irrelevant. But I can see that this topic is degenerating into yet another repetition of the new RMXP.org mantra: "If anyone says anything you don't agree with or don't like, it's YOUR PROBLEM. There's no way I COULD EVER have gotten my point across better."

I'm done arguing (in fact, I think I'm done with this entire site for a little while), but just remember the tone of this topic and others like it when next you wonder "Why don't people want to listen to me and do what I say?"

 

[Despain]

My apologies if I came off sounding elitist, but you must understand that I've been plenty "nice" and "civil" in past personal critiques. And I've read so many brush-offs from people that consist of:

"Meh, I like it, so it stays!"

and

"Well, I think it looks good!"

that I have become jaded and apathetic to their feelings.

welcome... to my world

 

[Despain]

When I first started out, there wasn't this atmosphere of people running around yelling "I AM THE JUDGE OF ALL THINGS, TAKETH MY ADVICE OR BE SCORNED FOREVER."

back int he day, nobody had to. these days a lot of people are just pumping out really bad garbage, and frankly that's not the problem here. if someone wants to make a shitty game then they're more than welcome to.

if someone makes a shitty game, posts it on these forums, asks for critique, then blatantly ignores critique or even worse, insults the person taking the time to give them feedback, then that's where the problem comes in. and this kind of behavior is becoming disgustingly common.

a lot of these kinds of topics and this kind of attitude (ie. i know what i'm talking about so fucking listen to me) comes from waaaay to many people asking for feedback and then totally blowing it off. i mean, for all the bitching and "negative" criticism that i give people, it's because ultimately, they're asking for it by posting on this forum. that's what this place is for.

you don't have to take it, or even agree with it, but the attitude of "well its my game so f*ck off" is out of place here. this is a community. i know for a fact that you agree with me here, because motw wouldn't be anything like it currently is if it wasnt for the support and feedback of the community.

the problem is that very few people are as receptive to criticism as you are, and thus they're missing the entire purpose of this forum.

we're not deviantart. rmxp.org is not a gallery for your games. it's a place to share them to GROW and LEARN and ultimately IMPROVE YOURSELf. if anybody is here for a reason other than that, and they just want to show off or are just digging for nice replies, then yes i do wholeheartedly believe that this community would be a better place without them.

i'd frankly much prefer a smaller community that is actually productive and intelligent over a massive community of attention-seeking idiots

 

[Despain]

smörgåsbord

the accent marks here are the highlight of this topic btw

 

[Despain]

"If anyone says anything you don't agree with or don't like, it's YOUR PROBLEM. There's no way I COULD EVER have gotten my point across better."

huh? we value freedom of speech. unless someone is outright flaming, they do nothing wrong (and anyone who is seriously flaming (calling someone a stupid nigger or something) will deal with consequences, but i haven't seen anything like that really recently). we care about the content of peoples' posts, we don't force faked kindness upon our members. that kind of thing creates a horribly artificial community. i want each member to be his or her own person, and if a few people are a bit rude, then it's entirely worth it.

i agree though entirely that too many people are being mean just for the sake of it. a lot of copycats out there see members like myself or holloway or others being mean and they just think it's cool and try it too, and they TOTALLY miss the focus (in other words, i'm mean because it's the CONTENT that matters) and they just ignore that part and start throwing f-bombs

in fact i might make another topic about this because it's horribly off-topic

 

[Venetia]

Hahaha, wow.

I'm like, the nicest, sweetest person on the forum for years, am ignored repeatedly. And then the second I say anything even slightly vitriolic, people ignore the content of my post and attack my style.

Even people who I like and RESPECT outright call me a bitch (which, by the way, is only offensive to me in that I like and respect you so it's hurtful to know that you would think so lowly of me for stating my personal opinions in a more colorful way). Just because I'm an asshole (not even a big one!!!) ONCE.

It's nice to know that all the time and effort I've put into helping you people has netted ME so much respect.

Yay for not ignoring me, and super yay for ignoring the content of what I was trying to get across I guess?

I'm just trying to figure out what WILL get across to people here because it seems like neither sugar NOR spice will do it.

Amazing.

(also smörgåsbord is courtesy of firefox spellchecker hehe)

 

[badmonur]

Holy shit, where did this thread go? All i see is a good guide, you kids need to stop taking shit so personally and why would anyone call ven a bitch (bad word), she is the sweetheart of the year for god sakes. Everyone needs to focus the fuck up and drop they're ePeens. How hard is it  to say, hey good guide thx for trying to help. Im certain that she didn't mean any harm when she wrote it. And i think all of you know that, why you cause eDrama is beyond me. Everyone needs to get on topic and stop straying over into a zone that i would like to call....locked.

 

[moog]

focus the fuck up

 

[Skie Fortress]

Venetia actually has a ton of good points. I've had typography class this quarter and my instructor has been saying pretty much the sames things in this topic.

Of course, it's still up to the individual to take what they want from this and grow themselves. Venetia surely wasn't saying that this is the end all, must do. People need to get thicker skins...

 

[Anaryu]

I can't say I even really have a problem with tone of the first post, I find this a very solid post with a lot of good points in it. I think the discussions about the issues with elitism, etc, are best left for another post because this is actually a guide worth paying attention to.

If someone listens to the information they can walk away with good points (use a checklist!) to keep in mind when deciding graphics, if they come in and get indignant and leave because "pah! what do they know!" or "I ain't changin' nothing!" that's an entirely different matter.

Many great projects do NOT have a focus on graphics; you have to try harder in other fields to make up the difference however.

Using graphics, images, and visuals wisely can be a priceless part of improving a project and just ignoring the advice is a waste.

While I am NOT saying being caustic in feedback or harsh to new comers is in any way a good thing, I WILL say that many designers need to read things like this with an open mind and actually THINK.

If everyone just took a second to actually consider if they can use any of this advice (picking out char sets that have varied color instead of all black/white, getting help on recoloring or frankenspriting sprites, using a font that they themselves can read comfortably, etc.) I think they'll find that the little changes do add up.

Also consider that these days there are tons of options that weren't available during RMXP's infancy; particle engines to use easy images to create stunning effects, tons of sprite edits, ways to color/light/tone screens, and many more graphic artists to ask for help from.