Non-anime RPG in RMXP possible?

[Volrath]

Hmm....I guess you read the old version of that post. I edited it because I felt I had been too rude originally. However....

I wanted to say that it's impossible to do what you're saying.

This is what bothers me. You are speaking for everyone when in fact it's just your opinion. It may be a pet peeve, but speaking in these absolutes drives me crazy. If you hadn't had a chance to read the edited post, I basically said I wasn't sure what was so anime about the RTP to begin with, other than the obviously anime battlers. In my case, we've gotten custom battlers to match the custom (though RTP-style) sprites. I don't get what's anime about a cliff tileset, for example.

Still, this may be a waste of time, because it seems your major beef is with the RTP itself, not whatever medium you think it invokes. With that, I say good luck on your completely custom graphics project. If you manage to finish it, I'll eat my hat. I don't even wear a hat. I will buy a hat just to eat it on that occasion. :p The indigestion will be a small price to pay for the chance at seeing a completed project like that.

 

[arev]

Yeah, I've read the previous version. And sorry, I should have add "IMO" a few times. Also, it's not you, nor you project I'm against. It's that bad (IMO) habbit of making a game just with the storyline. Or maybe I'm just expecting too much? Either way I don't think this will change soon (or at all), but I saved what you said about the hat :p

 

[FoxDemonSoavi]

And FoxDemonSoavi, it doesn't really require money to make an original game. It just takes much more effort to choose the harder way :]

The harder way includes being able to do all the music, art, scripting, mapping, and writing yourself. Good luck If you can do that and still make a good game, I shall eat my hat as well.

 

[Lene]

Playing Devil's advocate here: Why would someone be offended about someone saying you "can't" do something, and then imply that one can't finish a completely custom game without money?

That said, I'd argue that Volrath's game is Eastern inspired if it has a named cast of characters that are pretty much consistent throughout the entire game. Character development involves cutscenes and the storyline is somewhat linear (in the sense that you can't random decide to veer off the main plotline because you can).

The storytelling might be Western, but I've never seen a Western RPG that resembles most of the games posted on here. Never ever ever. If I am mistaken and such games exist, please direct me to it, it'll probably be worth my time and money to rent.

 

[Anaryu]

@arevulopapa: Story shouldn't be the main focus of a game. Characters should. If you want it to be successful anyway. There are a lot of ways to stress the character; one is to make them very generic but require the player to "become" the character through a lot of overhead. Diablo is a good example of this.

Another is to build a story around the character, most RPGs take this route.

In the sense of painting, you are teaching a player how to use his paintbrush (characters) to paint a picture (story) using your technique (gameplay). Some people center on making the "technique" as strong as they can, while others the "picture" they're painting. But in the end, you need to ensure that the player can enjoy using the tool, and and that they have SOMETHING to do with it; be it gameplay, story, or a mix of the two.


On the subject of RTP; it can be used well. Heck, I've got several finished projects that don't look anime-styled but use the RTP, one of which was done in a comic-book styled artform and another which doesn't even use battlers, just sprites, and as such doesn't really look "anime."

I wish you luck on your custom graphics project, but I have someone making custom graphics for me, and they spend as much time doing that as I do everything else! Also, I'm not sure if the project in your signature is the same one you're talking about, but that's not custom graphics, that's ripped graphics. That's not really that much different from RTP tilesets.

@Lene: Your last paragraph confuses me deeply. Are you looking for a reference a western game that suits the style of the majority of the RTP developed games on this site? ie. You want a Western RPG that looks and plays much like MotW, Under, or Absence of Vagaries?

 

[Lene]

@arevulopapa: Story shouldn't be the main focus of a game. Characters should.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. But I think this is the wrong topic for this kind of discussion.

If you want it to be successful anyway. There are a lot of ways to stress the character; one is to make them very generic but require the player to "become" the character through a lot of overhead. Diablo is a good example of this.

And all Western RPGs pretty much.

Another is to build a story around the character, most RPGs take this route.

Most, if not all (as far as I know anyways), Western RPGs completely disregard this. This is an Eastern trait from what I have seen.

From what the OP has said, they want a Western style RPG. The difference is more than just graphics.

@Lene: Your last paragraph confuses me deeply. Are you looking for a reference a western game that suits the style of the majority of the RTP developed games on this site? ie. You want a Western RPG that looks and plays much like MotW, Under, or Absence of Vagaries?

Yes that's what I'm asking. The game does not have to be made up of RTP even. Because, once again, graphics are not how I'm differentiating between Western and Eastern.

 

[Anaryu]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. But I think this is the wrong topic for this kind of discussion.

And all Western RPGs pretty much.

Most if not all Western RPGs completely disregard this. This is an Eastern trait from what I have seen.

From what the OP has said, they want a Western style RPG. The difference is more than just graphics.

I think the problem here is that I don't think of (what I'm assuming you're refering to as Western RPGs) the games you're refering to as RPGs so much. And that problem definitely comes in at the point of defining "role playing." I would to ensure I'm not mistaken and not thinking along a different path than you, hence just us arguing about different things as if we're talking on the same page. (That's always frustrating and fruitless for all parties involved.)

Diablo was an RPG? I dunno, it really had as much "role playing" to it as Half Life did... which makes... Half Life an RPG? It'd be cool if you had a list of games to tote as Western examples, as I didn't really know there was a difference and I'm assuming at this point that the "western RPGs" you're refering to I wasn't even considering in the genre really, and as such wasn't thinking down that path.

And perhaps one of us is misunderstanding the OP; I'm pretty sure his idea was to stick with story and gameplay that didn't center on the "good" versus "evil" thing and instead concentrate on other ways of creating tension. Money, greed, etc.

Those topics are ones that Eastern RPGs cover just as well, if not better, than Western, since as you stated earlier many Western RPGs seem to center on the idea of either total freedom and no story, or a linear story dressed up in a wide array of conversational responses. (I'm thinking along the lines of Baldur's Gate and Knights of the Old Republic and things like Oblivion, etc.)

Before we derail this further, maybe the OP could better state exactly what he's looking to do, because a tale centered on what he talks about earlier, greed and revenge, etc, are certainly not things that the Eastern RPG style has neglected, although there aren't as many as there are the whole "Fantasy Save the World" games.

 

[Volrath]

Playing Devil's advocate here: Why would someone be offended about someone saying you "can't" do something, and then imply that one can't finish a completely custom game without money?

Fair enough. I only make those implications based on my own experience on these forums, seeing what does get finished and what does not. I would love to be wrong about this, but I still don't see myself talking a bite out of that hat anytime soon.

That said, I'd argue that Volrath's game is Eastern inspired if it has a named cast of characters that are pretty much consistent throughout the entire game. Character development involves cutscenes and the storyline is somewhat linear (in the sense that you can't random decide to veer off the main plotline because you can).

This is the sort of murky reasoning that got me annoyed with this thread in the first place, and why I regret becoming a part of it. Still, I can't fathom how someone can tell me that I got my inspiration from Eastern games when I, having the slight advantage of actually being the creator of the game, know for a fact my inspiration for MotW came entirely from things produced in the West....Marvel comic books and 90s American cartoons.

Are character development and cutscenes really ONLY a trait of Eastern things? I really hope not, if so this hemisphere blows.

 

[Lene]

This is the sort of murky reasoning that got me annoyed with this thread in the first place, and why I regret becoming a part of it. Still, I can't fathom how someone can tell me that I got my inspiration from Eastern games when I, having the slight advantage of actually being the creator of the game, know for a fact my inspiration for MotW came entirely from things produced in the West....Marvel comic books and 90s American cartoons.

Like I said, your storytelling might be Western inspired, but the way your game plays out more like an Eastern RPG than any Western RPG I've ever played.

Are character development and cutscenes really ONLY a trait of Eastern things? I really hope not, if so this hemisphere blows.

Damn straight. Why do you think I've been ranting against them so much? Mind you, Western RPGs have character development, but it's minimal. Fable is a good example of that. Like Anaryu said:

Western RPGs seem to center on the idea of either total freedom and no story, or a linear story dressed up in a wide array of conversational responses. (I'm thinking along the lines of Baldur's Gate and Knights of the Old Republic and things like Oblivion, etc.)

 

[Volrath]

Like I said, your storytelling might be Western inspired, but the way your game plays out more like an Eastern RPG than any Western RPG I've ever played.

Perhaps perhaps. Given the views on Eastern vs. Western RPGs that you have outlined here, hopefully I'm correct to assume that's a compliment. I'm also hoping you've actually played the game before making a claim like that....wouldn't be the first time MotW had been judged by someone who had never bothered to actually fire it up and see for themselves.

Anyway, I'm still pretty sure my gradual pacing and emphasis on character development were inspired by Roger Stern's Spider-Man story arcs of the mid 80s, but hey....what do I know, right? :p

 

[-panopticon-]

Well if the quality of jrpg's is more unique and interesting than US style ones then there'll be more interest, it's not because of anime's popularity that they are getting more of the market, it's because they're better.



Define outside the box.



I understand what you mean by the same plot elements getting overused but when everyone starts making RPGs they think that the most cliche devices are original like say the main villain being the main heroes father. If you find a more developed RPG maker then they're storylines and characters will be stronger because more thought and originality has gone into it. Also these common plot elements can be used well if there is a good reason for them to be used rather than being randomly chucked in because it sounds good.



I think the horizons are broadened(If that makes any sense >_>) but you've not seen the original projects. If you look through the Project Discussions I'm sure you'll find each game has it's own unique feel.



T_T.

I disagree with your statement that the quality of the game is what makes it interesting in the end. I'm willing to bet if you were to put a JRpg box and a western style RPG box in front of someone in the RPG Maker community who knew nothing about either and told them to pick one, they would pick the JRpg one, simply because of the art style.

And outside the box...as in breaking convention. Right now, JRPG's are the norm. To do something else would be breaking said convention.

I agree with what your saying about cliche's. One should not try to deliberately avoid them when making a game, since todays creative world is rather cynical and finds more things to be cliche than actually are. But still, common plot elements are present in most games, and going away from those elements is not a bad thing.

Some of the projects being posted here, and at other places, are original, but for every original game, there are ten times as many "Final Shadow Destiny"(not a real project, just the most cliche sounding name I can think of at the moment lol). Personally, I think that if western elements and eastern elements were to come together in games, it could only make things better. I don't think its arguable that the RPG Maker community has a predisposition for eastern style games, even if it doesn't want to admit it. I think it would be a breath of fresh air to see a western style game being made. It would be difficult though.

 

[Lene]

Anyway, I'm still pretty sure my gradual pacing and emphasis on character development were from Roger Stern's Spider-Man story arcs of the mid 80s, but hey....what do I know, right?

Volrath, it's not only about the story and how it's told. Ultima and Final Fantasy are RPG series that have distinct qualities that are more Western and Eastern in style respectively.

You know what? I did some searching on this, maybe these articles can give you a better view of what I'm trying to talk about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_differences_in_computer_and_console_role-playing_games
http://www.gamespy.com/articles/489/489047p1.html
http://www.mobygames.com/featured_article/feature,25/

Really, it's a matter of taste. I personally like Eastern RPGs better. The next person may love Western RPGs. From the games I see on the forums, it seems there's a lot people more inclined towards Eastern RPGs.

 

[Volrath]

It's not that I necessarily reject having an Eastern style RPG, if that is indeed the case, but the early pages of this thread were basically implying that by choosing to use any RTP elements, people were choosing to make a game that imitated Japanese stories and games.

That seriously pissed me off...enough for me not to realize how utterly derailed this thread has become until it was too late. I suppose an overarching issue here is how irritating this overarching anime-backlash can be. If it can get to the point where MotW is likened to anime simply because of the presence of RTP (which is what started all this, not discussion of the gameplay...by the way, you never said if you had played it or not.....It's okay, I know not everyone has 15 hours to kill :p ), that's evidence that people need to step back and try to figure out what their real issue is.

 

[Lene]

Judging from the games the OP was referencing and certain other replies to the topic, sure, there's a question of graphics, but I think that just changing graphics will not change a game from Japanese to non-Japanese.

Regarding your game, I played like 10 minutes of the first arc of your game, but it's enough to know that *I* would not call it a Western RPG. I don't need to play all 3 arcs to be able to tell. The fact you even mention story pacing when describing your game, hints that the vehicle you're choosing to execute your story is Eastern. Western RPGs barely even have a plot to pace in the first place!

 

[AceJP]

I owuld imagine most RPG's are anime because they are made in Japan, and anime is the art style over there. Anwyays, I love the anime feel and look anyday over american art. But thats just my opinion,

 

[Volrath]

The fact you even mention story pacing when describing your game, hints that the vehicle you're choosing to execute your story is Eastern.

XD Oh man, I just think that's sad. But I guess if you're thinking of things like Baldur's Gate or World of Warcraft as a typical Western RPG, then its true that MotW is not like that.

I guess I should just be glad that American comics and cartoons (in the 90s, at least) don't seem to have that lack of story detail. Or else there wouldn't be a MotW.

 

[Lene]

XD Oh man, I just think that's sad. But I guess if you're thinking of things like Baldur's Gate or World of Warcraft as a typical Western RPG, then its true that MotW is not like that.

I guess I should just be glad that American comics and cartoons (in the 90s, at least) don't seem to have that lack of story detail. Or else there wouldn't be a MotW.

Well, if we were talking about comics and cartoons, it'd be a different story. Maybe that can be another topic somewhere...