Intelligent discussion is not flaming...

[Sirc]

sorry, you guys were pissing me off, it was like a thread 'this is a triangle' with a picture of a triangle. You guys obviously leave no room for actual discussion and instead just sit around and act elitist. Not so much discussion as... Well I suppose I'll let you fill in the blank.

EDIT: maybe next time if you didn't blatantly insult people with different views the topic will have a better life span.

FURTHER EDITING: oh and the personal jabs against me (smartly in PM) didn't help much either

I saw more actual discussion and debate on the topic itself than insults against specific people. The most heated it got was "you haven't listened to Black Metal" or "You don't know much about Black Metal" and anyone who isn't a pampered princess can shrug that off, retaliate or continue. The only situation like that where I'd see it's necessary to close a thread and end the discussion is if the everyone in the debate was arguing the person themselves and not their points. Which wasn't really the case in that thread, as far as I saw.

 

[Andy6000]

I saw more actual discussion and debate on the topic itself than insults against specific people. The most heated it got was "you haven't listened to Black Metal" or "You don't know much about Black Metal" and anyone who isn't a pampered princess can shrug that off, retaliate or continue.

This is what I'm talking about. You shrug off any actual debate by just saying 'you don't know black metal if you think that as a genre it's not what I said it was'. That is about as far into discussion as you made it.

 

[Sirc]

If you read it, you'll find they were going into more detail than that and I enjoyed reading why people though the genre was good or bad.

 

[Andy6000]

Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to open it up for some other moderator or admin or whatever to look at that topic, and step on my toes. If they think it's okay to be open, then it'll be open. Open invitation to override my decision here, because I do enjoy the read (despite not knowing much about the genre to begin with, which I'd remedy if I had more time).

The topic looked hostile. Everyone was just pissing on each-other's opinions, stating their own as fact, and it was not the friendliest of topics to, let's face it, anyone.

So yeah: OPEN INVITATION TO GO BACK ON MY CLOSURE, NOT STEPPING ON MY TOES, OUTSIDE JUDGMENT WOULD BE APPRECIATED.

 

[PINEDAXP]

Honestly, if I were a Moderator, I'd close it too, not to offend anyone. But since I'm not I have no voice on this.
Just a thought

 

[ccoa]

Let me see if I can summarize the thread.

First post: no premise, no meat. Just "discuss".

Rinse and Repeat:
Someone posts a contradictory opinion to FoTT or posts that they don't like the music
Someone (usually FoTT) posts telling them they are a teenager/idiot/knows nothing about music

Sounds exactly like the last music thread FoTT was involved in, actually. There is some genuine discussion going on in this thread, but it keeps getting overshadowed by "my opinion is more valid than yours and you're an idiot!" Which is not only irritating, but completely counterproductive to any sort of debate. Debate with the argument, not the person. Dismissing the person as an idiot whose opinions are automatically invalid because you said so is simply not good debate technique, and when done repeatedly is trolling.

 

[Fallofthetyrant]

Therefore using me as an example should be considered as trolling.
Since this post had nothing to do with me in first 'lieu'.

 

[Sirc]

Compare the ratio of insults to valid argument and you'll find the ratio to be around 1:25, respectively. Meaning 1 insult for every 25 valid points. Yes I pulled that number out of my ass, but that's not the point.

I still think it was sort-of blown out of proportion. I didn't see any real insulting, other than someone stating someone else is not knowledgeable on the topic at hand. Regardless, it took up a few lines and was done with.

 

[Fallofthetyrant]

Taken from random post...

'Did you notice that every single one of those has a response from Christians? Did you read all of those, too, or did you just snicker and look at the list?'

Or this one which I like...

'symposium'd

also seriously mind your own godamn business, he's going to be the same guy, with a fucking vagina.'

Is that considered as trolling as well?
Because it seems to me the same tone was use in the Black Metal thread.

 

[Andy6000]

Taken from random post...

'Did you notice that every single one of those has a response from Christians? Did you read all of those, too, or did you just snicker and look at the list?'

Or this one which I like...

'symposium'd

also seriously mind your own godamn business, he's going to be the same guy, with a fucking vagina.'

Is that considered as trolling as well?
Because it seems to me the same tone was use in the Black Metal thread.

quoted! What an honor to be quoted in a diatribe against my own actions, I suppose you'd like to paint me the hypocrite, eh?

But illustrious scholar, read on! Further into that very same topic you'll see me make fun of Mormonism! But listen up, because this is the kicker. The difference between the way I did it, and the way you did it, is that I acknowledged his beliefs. I didn't say 'invalid because it doesn't mesh with my views', no, I made my ass remark, and then went on to say that it's his call what he believes, and while I don't necessarily find it wise, I find it reasonable.

Pick better quotes.

EDIT: actually no, just don't pick quotes from me, because I know what I say, and I know how I say it.

 

[Fallofthetyrant]

Arguments are invalid without further proof

Therefore, by not bringing up valid points and proofs

I can't acknowledge the other person's point.

Until it's proven...

 

[Andy6000]

Arguments are invalid without further proof

Therefore, by not bringing up valid points and proofs

I can't acknowledge the other person's point.

Until it's proven...

Prove to me this, prove to me you're hearing what you're hearing. Seeing what your brain is thinking it's seeing. You can't. Everything's a godamn interpretation your brain thought up. Blue isn't blue, because blue looks completely different to someone else. The reason we can define color is because it graduates in a solid spectrum, not because that's what it actually is.

IF you think about things in this silly little way, then religion is just as godamn reasonable as saying gravity exists. BUT WAIT. Where do we draw the line?

 

[Fallofthetyrant]

if you go that further I could go all Solipsist and say: you don't exist, all I exist...

But down to earth:

Valid point ABOUT music + proofs

 

[Sirc]

Either way, even if more harsher posts were made by people in the past than those in the BM thread (which isn't a very hard feat) it's not that relevant. A moderator's judgment is law. I simply want to know why discussion in that thread was viewed as harsh. I went over it again and it doesn't seem that hostile to me.

This thread even mimics it.

"I know what I say and how I say it, you don't."

"I know about BM, you don't."

That's the extent of the insults in both of these threads, what was so shocking? Both followed by actual debate as well. Even though I don't know what FoTT is on right now.

 

[Andy6000]

Hehe... "I know what I say" is slightly different than "I know black metal" I am myself, you are not black metal. Black metal is an abstract musical form, not the insides of your brain.

Now, I can't argue black metal, because I don't know it for shit. But what I can say is that perfectly subjective opinions were put forth, and IMMEDIATELY shot down for no reason other than you thinking you know what's best. Which defeats the purpose of the thread in the first place...

what was I talking about again?

 

[Fallofthetyrant]

I think I wasn't the only one accusing some people 's ignorance toward Black metal as a musical style.

This is mostly due to the fact that we had many negative comments that weren't helping at all. When I opened the thread it was mostly for people to share the bands their like or albums or even songs, and even maybe their own bands. or to know if any of you play any instrument, etc.

Not to know whether Black Metal sucks or not which was brought by other posters.

 

[rexxzecutioner]

Nevermind that classical period music relied on multi-contrapuntal orchestration and had CLEAR harmony rules, whereas metal is entirely riff based and uses verse/chrous structure mostly. But sure, THEORY can totally back up your claim that they are very similar! What a joke.

 

[Sirc]

Yes, but it's still circular logic.
Wait, I don't get what else was supposed to happen. Were we supposed to support each others views? They were opinions people didn't agree with and they stated why, making it a debate. One said he knew better than the other, the other said he knew better. But they still offered points and ongoing discussion as to why they thought they knew better.

 

[Andy6000]

now now, no need to go off-topic here...

 

[Fallofthetyrant]

The problem was that people that got little knowledge about the theme was trying to put down our debate.