"DBZ: Legend of the Super Saiyan" RPG system (not urgent)

[Conners]

I searched the forum, but couldn't find any topics related to the snes game, "Dragon Ball Z: Chou Saiya Densetsu (Legend of the Super Saiyan)". If you don't know what it is, there is a video of it here: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=C8uC9-ce8 ... re=related ___ There are more parts under "Related Videos" if you want to see more gameplay.
And you can get a "Let's Play" commentary, and look at the Fan-Translation, here: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=GU2K7IvenLw

Now, what I was wondering is, how hard would it be for a person to make a battle system like the one in this game? This was one of my most favourite games of all time, and I'd love to make an original story for the DBZ universe using this battle system, for my next RPG project. I use RPG Maker XP, by the way.

For anyone who is interested in the system and wants to try the game, PM me and I'll PM back details.

Features of the system include:

* Five cards with two 1 to Z ratings, the top rating for attack and the lower rating for defence.
* Different attack card, including KI cards which let you use special attacks.
* Favourite Cards which allow a character to attack all enemies instead of just one.
* BPs (Battle Powers, aka: Power Levels) listed along with a character's level. Battle Power raising by a determined amount with each level up.
* A system where Battle Power is used to determine characters' powers.
* Dodging attacks more than in most RPGs.
* If your BP is high enough, the chance to "Re-fight" an opponent who has just attacked you.
* With much higher BP, your character will sometimes attack more than once with a random card.
* Items that affect cards in various fashions.
* If your BP is MUCH higher, then sometimes the enemy's attack will be too weak and you'll take no damage whatsoever.

Other features that are good, but not totally necessary:

* Fight animations--see the videos. [A system of repeatedly using "Show Picture" perhaps...? Or a system of giving the sprites animations in combination with effects?]
* The out-of-combat ability to swap between flight and walking, as well as the ability to "Fast-Fly" which raises your speed but increases the chance of a random encounter.
* Blue health bars for characters and enemies. When lowered, the parts they previously filled are replaced with red bar.
* Enemy BPs showing up when you hold down a certain button during the action menu of combat (the menu that lets you choose, Attack, Item, Escape, etcetera.).
* Characters dying properly when dropped to 0 HP in combat. [Not much of a request since it could probably be done with a common event which removes them from the party when they reach 0 HP.]
* The ability to use such transformations as Oozaru (when saiyans look at the full moon, they turn into giant apes with ten times their original BP), Kaioken (you multiply your BP by an amount based on how good the KI card is), and Super Saiyan (you become the legendary super saiyan, ). Note that the multipliers/etcetera. and the BP sizes don't matter particularly from making the system's perspective--as long as the game creator can edit the numbers without too much trouble.
* Certain menu changes and other things.

I'm not planning on working on a DBZ RPG right away, or that soon really. If someone was interested enough that they could work on bits and pieces with the plan of finishing the system in X weeks, or Y months, then that would be fine--although if the system isn't too hard to do and can be done quickly, then that'd allow for more refining-time.


Thanks for reading.

 

[Crazy Li]

Well, as long as it's compatible with all the other scripts you plan to use, it'll be fine. Nothing I do is gonna affect message boxes (at least not as far as I'm aware...)

 

[Conners]

That's good to hear.

Tell me if you need anything, I'll be happy to help however I can manage too.

 

[Crazy Li]

I'm curious to know exactly how you'd want the menu to be layed out. Like in terms of window positioning, what options the menu will contain, what stats will display, will the menu show the character's sprites, portraits, or neither? That kinda stuff.

If you can make a simple mockup, that would be helpful.

 

[Conners]

OK, I'll try my best to describe the menu. You might want to replay the game for reference, as well.

First, when you press the appropriate button, a small menu appears in the bottom left:

-----------------------------------------------

|                                             |

|                                             |

|                                             |

|                                             |

|                                             |

|                                             |

|                                             |

|                                             |

| _______                                     |

|[Fly    ]                                    |

|[Item   ]                                    |

|[Status ]                                    |

|[Cards  ]                                    |

-----------------------------------------------

Something like that. Fly makes your character do the flying animation and change to the flying sprite... and applies the flying script so you're flying. As for the effects of flying, after pressing a direction, you won't stop moving until you press the (cancel-button?) appropriate button. You can also swap between Super-Fly which is faster and brings up more random encounters, and normal fly which is slower, via another button.

Item takes you to the item menu (also accessible from Status). It could be the same as the normal one for simplicity (can't see what I'd change to do with it).

Before I go into status, I'll explain that Cards makes the hand of cards you currently have appear in a row across the screen. A method to check your cards before battle and work out if you want to use a card randomiser or the like beforehand.

Status takes you to the menu you'd normally go to. From here you can access in-depth statistics of your characters, Current EXP, EXP to next level, HP, KI, BP To-Hit (how often you hit the enemy), AGI (how often you dodge), ATK (how much damage you do with physical attacks), POW (how much damage you do with KI attacks), and of course their name, portrait, and list of skills.
Equip them with items (self explanatory).
Set the order the characters go in from top of the list to the bottom (not like most RPGs where it's front, middle, or back).
Items is the same as Items from the mini menu.
Skills lets you swap between more detailed lists of your characters' skills, and lets you use certain skills like Healing, and Power Down.
Options takes you into the game options. Things that could be customized here might include: Combat Speed. How often the game enters Over-World Combat (like in DBZ3 for the nes). Text speed. Combat Dialogue on/off/mid (mid will show important dialogue like when you use a special attack or transform, but will ignore normal dialogue. Cut-scenes in battle are present regardless of this setting, but I'd like a way of skipping them if possible). Note that these are just some options off the top of my head.
Save saves your game.
Exit Game exits the game.
I'd suggest something like this for a custom menu:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

|Status   ] LV 30   |Goku|LV 08   |Goh-|LV 20   |Pic-|LV 10   |Kri-|        |

|Equip    ] HP 1000 |----|HP 300  |an  |HP 1500 |colo|HP 0    |llen|        |

|Order    ]   /2000 |____|  /400  |____|  /1500 |____|  /951  |____|        |

|Items    ] KI 43/50      KI 30/35      KI 54/54      KI 0/40               |

|Skills   ] BP 3,000,000  BP 3,450      BP 730,020    BP 1,980              |

|Options  ] LV 18   |Tien|LV 01   |Cho-|                                    |

|Save     ] HP 1000 |----|HP 80   |utzu|                                    |

|Exit Game]   /2000 |____|  /80   |____|                                    |

|           KI 43/50      KI 30/30                                          |

|           BP 375,400    BP 450                                            |

|                                                                           |

|                                                                           |

|                                                                           |

|                                                                           |

|                                                                           |

|                                                                           |

|                                                                           |

|                                                                           |

|                                                                           |

|                                                                           |

|                                                                           |

|                                                                           |

|                                                                           |

|---------------------------------------------------------------------------|

The boxes with character names represent the portraits. I don't think there will be room for their names unless we put in on the portrait or spread it out more.

Do you want descriptions of the other menus (most of them will probably be like the norm)?


I have thought up an interesting idea for how the combat system could work. With the statistics I mentioned other than BP, HP, and KI, they are what defines your character's fighting style, and the basis of their power--these stats can be changed with equipment slightly. For example, a character like Nappa might have 0.95 To-Hit, 0.8 AGI, 2.0 ATK, 1.5 DEF, and 1.4 POW. If he equipped a decent scouter, his AGI would be brought up to 0.98, and his To-Hit would go up to 1.
A character like Krillen, however, would have something like 1.2 To-Hit, 1.4 AGI, 0.9 ATK, 0.95 DEF, and 1.6 POW. With Yajirobe's sword, Krillen's ATK would go up to 1.1, but his To-Hit would go down to 1.15.

Now, the way I figured it would go, is that your stats modify your BP. So if you had an ATK mod of 1.0, and 10,000 BP, then you would have an ATK of 10,000. But if you had a DEF mod of 0.5, and had a BP of 10,000, then you would have only 5,000 DEF.
This make sense to you? Assuming we could get this to work, our only problem would be how such large numbers were handled by the system. Would characters start killing each other in one hit? Would there be an overly random factor which made it so that a saibaman could kill Frieza? I've no idea what sort of problems might arise from a system like this, but I think it's certainly worth checking out (the stat idea is good, anyway).


Hope this stuff helps you.

 

[Crazy Li]

Well now that you gave me stats and stat functions, I can battle test them to see exactly how the system will handle it. I just have to write the actual algorithm to use the stats like your example.

I think I'm gonna battle test the Krillen stats vs. the Nappa stats and see how the battle goes, giving Krillen a power level of 1,600 and Nappa a power level of 4,000 for starters. If I get it to actually work, I'll post the results.

 

[Conners]

Let me give you a few examples of BP difference, so that you have a basic idea as to what I'm going for:

With Nappa vs. Krillen the way you mentioned it: Krillen would get slaughtered, as per the anime.

Zarbon 23,000 BP vs. Vegeta 24,000 BP: Vegeta, due to good stat mods, was able to be WELL above Zarbon in power. If they had the same stat mods, he'd probably have still broken off with a good advantage.

Monster Zarbon 28,000 BP vs. Vegeta 24,000 BP: Vegeta was beaten badly (though in his favour via the anime, he was greatly shocked by the transformation and thus put off guard)... Vegeta couldn't do much against Zarbon with this much difference, even with better stat mods (though Zarbon's would've improved).
Later, when they fought again, and Vegeta with a BP of 30,000, Zarbon was crushed without too hard a struggle (Vegeta still underwent difficulties due to having to watch Bulma and Krillen, etcetera.).

Another example is Goku and Piccolo (416 and 408 BP in order) were completely incapable of so much as damaging Raditz (BP 1,500).

I hope this helps you. Feel free to ask me questions about the matter thoroughly (I very much like this part of DBZ and have read it up).

 

[Crazy Li]

Well, I plugged some numbers in and just going off of the base stats, Krillen did single-digit damage (7-9) and Nappa did 30-40 in return. does that sound like it's close? keep in mind that this isn't factoring in cards.

also, it took Nappa 8 turns to kill Krillen (5 hits and 3 misses)

 

[Conners]

That is sounding pretty good. Krillen was able to dodge Nappa a bit in the anime, so as long as he doesn't do it 50% of the time then it's fine. What sort of HP did you give them? The amount of HP might be what we're looking for.

In the end, I think this is going very successfully... Here's another test I want you to run through, though:
SSJ Goku: 150,000,000 BP. 1.2 To-Hit, 1.3 AGI, 1.25 ATK, 1.1 DEF, 1.2 POW. -- VS. -- Final Form Frieza, 100% Maximum Power!!: 120,000,000 BP. 1.1 To-Hit, 1.2 AGI, 1.3 ATK, 1.4 DEF, 1.35 POW.

This is just out of curiosity, to see how high-level battles will work. AKA: Will XYZ points of a stat always make a huge difference and kill the other guy in one blow, or will it take more points as the numbers get bigger?

Hope it works, and thanks for everything you've been doing :D.

 

[Crazy Li]

I used 220HP for Nappa and 185 for Krillen, trying to base it off the HP numbers in the SNES game.

I don't think that I can test BPs that are over 1mil yet. I was using an actual RMXP stat field to hold the BP and then multiplying it, the maximum of that field only being 999 and the multiplier being 100 :p

I could increase my multiplier but that would change the minimum BP that could be used (for example, if the multiplier was 1000, then you can't do what I just did with Krillen since the database doesn't allow decimals)

When the real system gets created, I'll likely hafta just make a new stat field for BP that you can't change in the database and figure out how to make a curve for it for each player character. For now, I can change the multiplier for the sake of the test. just give me HP values to use for the two and I'll give it a try.

but don't you think you're exaggerating the power levels. I think Frieza was only 12 million, not 120 million o.o; likewise Goku would have been 15 million

 

[Conners]

The HP sound good. We'll probably have to work them around based on the tests. With the dodging, though, you might want to test two similarly-BPed characters, to see whether they dodge TOO much.

Ah, I see. So the highest BP you can test is 99,900? Hmmm... Well, I guess just test a few of the other fights I mentioned, if you like (you might want to tell me your exact methods of simulating the BP so that I can do some testing myself).

I see... This makes things awkward.

HP values could be about 350 for Goku, 360 for Frieza, I guess. That sound good to you?

As I said, I've done a lot of studying into BPs, and I believe the 12 mil thing was a rumour that became popular--likely based off daizenshuu 7 which has BPs done by Akira and his writing staff. That daizenshuu is what I'm basing my BPs off, and while it shows that there is no way at all that a non-SSJ/transformed-guy could beat an SSJ/untransformed-guy, that's how it ended up after the battle with Frieza (were there any times someone transformed but was still beaten...? I can't remember any)...
My calculations have shown the BPs to be accurate with the daizenshuu, besides a few oddities (Vegeta going form 30K to 2 million-ish in two days, for example). Still, I respect your opinion, so if you'd like to discuss it further we can.

 

[Crazy Li]

well, BPs are something that nobody agrees on. I figure I'll tell you the way I looked at it anyway, though...

I don't go into exact numbers and whatnot, so my figures are just rough estimates but when Goku recovered before fighting Frieza, his BP was around 300k (maybe 320k?). If I remember right, the highest kaioken he went was x20 so if you multiply by 20, you get a BP of about 6 million (6.4 mil at best). Frieza had powered up to 50% before this and likely was around 7mil at this time because Goku seemed to be doing fine at first, catching him off-guard with the increase in power... but after that, Frieza began smacking him around like a toy, so he obviously was still a bit too strong for Goku.

By this logic, Frieza at 100% would have a BP of 14mil... when Goku 1st accended to the level of Super Saiyajin, he wasn't yet stronger than Frieza. Since I read his Genki Dama was 10 mil, we can safely assume that his SSJ form was stronger than this at least, though. I'm going to say it's between 12-13 mil at start... but as the battle went on, his power kept increasing and Frieza started to get worn down. I'd say Frieza's BP dropped to about 12 mil before it was all said and done, while Goku's raised to about 15 mil after the whole incident with Gohan's outburst and all of that.

but I'm no expert, I'm just saying numbers that make sense to me. I don't see how Goku's Kaioken x20 could have boosted him into the hundred millions, which he would have needed to be to keep up with 50% Frieza if 100% Frieza was truly 100+ mil.

 

[Conners]

Hmm... Your theory certainly is logical and well-founded, and while I still disagree I'd like to compliment you on it.

Here is my take on it:

There are four problems with assuming Goku was 300K-ish: First: Vegeta went up form about 30K-ish to over a million just by zenkai-ing (getting injured and the recovering stronger than before, as saiyans do) twice, the first zenkai taking him to at least 250,000-ish (considering he was able to have a short duel with 1st-form Frieza). Where as Goku was at 90K when he zenkai-ed (30K is roughly an 8th of 250, assuming that's the number, so Goku is likely to have increased in power a great deal).
Before I state the second thing, I would like to put forward that Vegeta must've been well over a million to be so sure he could defeat Frieza's third transformation, especially when considering Piccolo was awed by Vegeta's new power. Now, the second thing is how Goku managed to kick Final Form Frieza into the distance (lacking the red aura, it oculdn't have been kaioken), whereas Vegeta was completely incapable of hurting Frieza... even his charged planet-destroying galic gun was deflected. Now put into the equation the fact that Vegeta thought Goku must've been the Super Saiyan, and that Goku actually had a chance to defeat Frieza where he failed. Goku certainly wasn't using Kaioken when Vegeta was saying this, and I think he would've mentioned Kaioken if that was Goku's ace-in-the-hole and only possibility.
The third is simply the fact that Kaioken is hard to endure, and 20x really took it out of Goku even though he only used it for a very brief period (smashed Frieza once, missed him the second time, thne unleashed a x20 Kamehameha).
Last thing isn't so much a series-mechanic, as it is a story-mechanic... Akira planned to end the series after Frieza and have Goku die on Namek, leaving Gohan and Vegeta to defend Earth for the self-thought adventures people would create for themselves. This explains why the characters went from eight thousand being a huge shock (9K in the US dub), to anything under 100,000 being absolute dirt... It also explains the absurd raising in power of the characters (Piccolo had fair excuse, but the others... not so much). That's why the final battle enters such crazy god-like BPs, because it was meant to be the final battle with nothing else, Goku the Legendary Super Saiyan vs. the Tyrant of the Universe who makes the Kais (who are meant to be gods) tremble.

As for the bit about Frieza smacking Goku around like a toy, he wasn't really doing proper damage to Goku. I think it was closer related to Goku not being used to fighting at such a high level of power... that or the animators just couldn't think of any other way to extend the fight ridiculously (more likely the latter...).

Not sure where you read about that Genki-Dama BP, but I would assume it another rumour (there are a lot of sites that actually lie about using official Daizenshuu BPs and other things, annoyingly...). Frieza could access about... 70% of his/her power, I think it was, without having to do the lengthy power-up. That's 84,000,000. I generally try not to guess attack BPs, though I might try to work out a system for it if I ever try to design that kind of a game--something like the second Gameboy game of DBZ, the one only released in Japan (I recommend playing it very much, though you'll need a walkthrough due to the Japanese).

Well, Goku's BP was 3,000,000 according to the Daizenshuu, so he would have only reached 60,000,000 with Kaioken times twenty... exactly equal to 50% of Frieza's power, as the short exchange seemed to hint at.

If your opinion remains the same, then there is still a good compromise. With a method of customizing Characters' BP yourself, the game maker can easily do it to their tastes, so it seems fair in the end, I'd say.


So, would you like to discuss this further? We might want to do it as we work on the system, though.

 

[Crazy Li]

hehe, don't worry about it. let's continue to focus on your game and not debate BPs or anything silly like that. I don't really follow it that much anyway, so I'm not going to act like I actually know what they are. the information I recall could be mixed up anyway... it's a combination of what I clearly heard stated in the show (scouters and whatnot) and stuff I read various places over the years, and a lot of them have likely been mixed up. it's not really that important either.

I wanna throw together the menu like the way you wanted it laid out, but I also wanna first go back to the game and look at theirs for ideas, because I really don't remember it at all now.

I might also check out that GB game at your advice, because I never even knew there were GB games. I've only played 4 NES ones, the SNES one that's inspiring this game for you, the two Gokuden games, and a few GBA games.

 

[Conners]

Heh, you're right that it's better we don't debate about trivialities. I'm sort of a BP expert who has studied the show rather closely, anyway (just as you are sort of an expert of scripting and other stuff).

It's a good idea to look back to the original constantly when doing a semi-remake--so long as you know which features can be improved upon, that is :p. The menus were rather overly-simple. The Item menu was a straight list of items with a description and picture appearing to the right. If an Item was at the bottom, you just had to scoll ALL the way down form the top... every time... That's why we're going to use the XP-style of the item menu instead.
There's one example, haven't time to write others.

As for the games, they're: Dragon Ball Z: Goku Hishouden, the first one, then Dragon Ball Z: Goku Gekitouden the second (I'm guessing you can find them yourself easily enough)... and unfortunately last. I recommend playing both, they each have a very unique gameplay style. Both had a lot of potential, but were never brought to other countries and are unlikely to be remade...

Before I go, there is one idea I'd like to put down:

* When there are several fighters set to attack on both sides, and during a non-KI attack animation--is it possible to have the other guys fly around in the background apparently slugging it out (they aren't actually damaging each other)? This would add to the feel that everyone is participating at the same time.
This would require an amount of conditional branches, I figure... and even then you might get three people slugging it out with the same guy. Is there a way to make this work?

 

[Crazy Li]

gah... don't call me an expert of scripting o.O that's totally misleading

I wanna give you an update on how the menu layout is progressing. It's not exactly the way you laid it out, I know... so I'll hafta fix some stuff up, but I wanted to let you know that I'm actually doing stuff :p

also, I haven't yet looked at the game yet like I said I was going to, but oh well...

Spoiler

 

[Conners]

Sorry :p.

The menu layout is looking pretty good. I wouldn't mind it as it is normally--except that fitting in more than six characters doesn't seem doable currently...

With the BP being listed, have you gotten BP working? Or does it just derive the stat form some others and then list it?

 

[Crazy Li]

All of that stuff is just random numbers for show. I haven't developed a BP system yet.

Also, I don't know how to go sideways on a menu for character display, otherwise I could have 2 rows of four characters showing.

I haven't tested, but I assume that if it exceeds 4 characters the way it is now, there would be an arrow after the 4th that lets you scroll down and see the rest.

Another thing is that I notice that I have plenty of room to show the name either below the portrait or where the level currently is, pushing the level display to the right some. which would you prefer?

 

[Conners]

Ah, OK. I can't wait to have a BP option script implemented :D.

Hmmm.... How hard would you guess it to be to make it possible for two rows? We could always make do with the scrolling idea if it's too undoable.


With the names, I'd say under the Portrait.

 

[Crazy Li]

I can't make that guess, because as I said, I have no idea how it's done.

Edit: Just when I say I have no idea how to do it, I somehow manage to do it... o.O

Spoiler

now I just need to find where to remove the max party of 4 that every RPG Maker likes to impose by default and we're in business.

 

[Conners]

LOL XD! There are already scripts out there that remove the party cap, I think I might already be using one, in fact.... Not sure if it affects the menus properly, though.

So, how has the testing with BP fights gone so far?